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Author Topic:   What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 91 of 167 (173201)
01-02-2005 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by PerfectDeath
01-02-2005 9:11 PM


Re: General question about this topic
well the point was that you only (mentioned \ singled out} one when the tango needs both ... and I think sexism is older than religion. heck it's as old as sex. (not that sex ever gets old ...)
and I would agree that most religions are sexist, but I don't see where that could lead to any added evolutionary benefit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by PerfectDeath, posted 01-02-2005 9:11 PM PerfectDeath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by PerfectDeath, posted 01-02-2005 11:56 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 97 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 7:55 AM RAZD has replied

  
PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 167 (173210)
01-02-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by RAZD
01-02-2005 11:16 PM


sexism as an evolutionary advantage
like i have ranted... at least i thing i ranted it... Humans evolved on the african savana were we were being eaten by almost everything... because of that our niche that we held was not very stable so a small change could whipe out our species... hell they almost did die. now when you look at a herd of Elk there is one male and a bunch of females, these females were attracted to this one male so this alpha-male's genes will go onto the next generation... a lot of his genes... but this is only because the Elk has a hold of a stable niche so they don't wave to wory much about change.
so to connect this to humans, because our niche is unstable the only way we could survive is to have a diverse gene pool. Now the females of our species are attracted to certain kinds of genes and not others so these undesirable genes will not be able to go on... but they have. this is because, like i said before, males are dominant and aggressive and try to find ways to control the females to they can pass their genes on... that is where sexism came from. males, trying to pass their genes on but they are unable to because they posess "undisired genes", had to find a way to pass them on so they developed sexism... i know this may sound mean but hey i don't consider our species to be all nice and friendly.
this ties to religion because some religions have formed ways to "control" females.
so i hope that answered your question... i coulda swore i typed this out... like 3 or 5 times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by RAZD, posted 01-02-2005 11:16 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2005 7:34 AM PerfectDeath has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 93 of 167 (173326)
01-03-2005 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by PerfectDeath
01-02-2005 11:56 PM


Re: sexism as an evolutionary advantage
you've had bits and pieces of it, but not all together like that.
sexism gives more males the ability to reproduce so their entrenchment of it into a cultural mechanism (religion) ensures greater availbility of reproduction?
I would think entrenchment of marriage {1-husband and 1-wife} would tend to do that as well, for both sexes.
certainly all the early religions were focused on fertility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by PerfectDeath, posted 01-02-2005 11:56 PM PerfectDeath has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 94 of 167 (173328)
01-03-2005 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
01-02-2005 2:47 PM


Re: General question about this topic
quote:
There is a big difference between simply "professing" Christianity as a political angle and actually being a Christian leader. Here in America, the last real Christian president was Jimmy Carter! IMHO.
You are now just engaging in what every new generation of Christians (or any other religion) does.
"Those people who called themselves Christians in the past? The ones who did things or held views that were considered quite normal and justified back then but we now consider racist, sexist, or otherwise offesnsive and oppressive?
They were not true Christians."
Well, phat, that is just you trying to distance yourself from the realities of your own religious history.
The KKK is a Christian white supremacist group that once counted it's US membership in the multi-millions back in the 1920's. It was a mainstream organization because it was normal to hate jews, blacks, Roman Catholics, and immigrants. Two US presidents, Harry Truman and Warren Harding were closely tied with the Klan.
Now, you may now say that these people were not Christian, but the point is that, in their minds, they were. All of those millions of people who were members, and the many millions more who supported those views considered themselves good, Christian people supporting Christian values.
Why is it then so unreasonable to think that Hitler and the Nazis didn't fully believe that they were good Christians, doing God's work?
They were all "true" Christians, phat. It's just that the definition of what you consider a "good" Christian has changed along with the greater societal norms.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 07:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 01-02-2005 2:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 7:52 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 167 (173332)
01-03-2005 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
01-02-2005 1:00 PM


Re: Does Belief ever evolve? What about human nature?
quote:
My conclusion goes in line with some who prophesy that in the last days, man will attempt to deify Self and do away with organized religion. This aura of fake world peace will bring about the next Hitler and people such as Christians will be persecuted for believing in such "humanist hindering" doctorines.
You know, I was watching C-Span a little while back when the man who was challenging the constitutionality of the phrase "under God" that was added to the pledge to the flag. He happened to be an Atheist.
I bring this up because of your implication that Christians will be persecuted for their "humanist hindering" doctrines.
Well, there was of course a call-in part to the show, and you should have heard the virulent, persecutorial hate pouring out onto this man from all of those good Christians. They told him that if he didn't like Christianity, he should get out of America. They told him that, as an Athiest, he didn't have the right to speak in America. They told him that he was going to burn in hell.
Now, tell me who is the persecuted class here?
My signature is more apt today than ever.

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 01-02-2005 1:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 7:56 AM nator has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 167 (173334)
01-03-2005 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by nator
01-03-2005 7:37 AM


Re: General question about this topic
Schraf writes:
You are now just engaging in what every new generation of Christians (or any other religion) does.
"Those people who called themselves Christians in the past? The ones who did things or held views that were considered quite normal and justified back then but we now consider racist, sexist, or otherwise offesnsive and oppressive?
They were not true Christians."
Well, phat, that is just you trying to distance yourself from the realities of your own religious history.
Not at all. I am aware that humans always have been and will be imperfect.
The KKK is a Christian white supremacist group that once counted it's US membership in the multi-millions back in the 1920's. It was a mainstream organization because it was normal to hate jews, blacks, Roman Catholics, and immigrants. Two US presidents, Harry Truman and Warren Harding were closely tied with the Klan.
Now, you may now say that these people were not Christian, but the point is that, in their minds, they were.
And I am saying that there is a reality beyond our minds. This truth is not relative!
All of those millions of people who were members, and the many millions more who supported those views considered themselves good, Christian people supporting Christian values.
Why is it then so unreasonable to think that Hitler and the Nazis didn't fully believe that they were good Christians, doing God's work?
Anyone in tune with the Spirit can plainly see why.
They were all "true" Christians, phat.
According to your relative view?
It's just that the definition of what you consider a "good" Christian has changed along with the greater societal norms.
Absolute Truth supercedes societal norms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 7:37 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 8:05 AM Phat has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 167 (173335)
01-03-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by RAZD
01-02-2005 11:16 PM


Re: General question about this topic
quote:
and I would agree that most religions are sexist, but I don't see where that could lead to any added evolutionary benefit.
If you control the female, you control who impregnates her, and therefore who's genes get passed on.
Thus, the harem.
...and the double standard regarding promiscuity.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 07:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by RAZD, posted 01-02-2005 11:16 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2005 9:07 AM nator has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 167 (173336)
01-03-2005 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by nator
01-03-2005 7:49 AM


Re: Does Belief ever evolve? What about human nature?
Schraf writes:
Well, there was of course a call-in part to the show, and you should have heard the virulent, persecutorial hate pouring out onto this man from all of those good Christians. They told him that if he didn't like Christianity, he should get out of America. They told him that, as an Athiest, he didn't have the right to speak in America. They told him that he was going to burn in hell.
Yes. Sadly, many who profess Christianity are worse than unbelievers. I could chalk it up to an attack of spiritual warfare, which I will, but I also am not defending anything about organized religion and America. If Jesus were here today, in the flesh, He would NOT be an American.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 7:49 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 8:08 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 101 by Brian, posted 01-03-2005 8:12 AM Phat has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 167 (173340)
01-03-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
01-03-2005 7:52 AM


Re: General question about this topic
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to be "in tune" with the spirit.
So, you have special, insider knowledge that nobody else has and this gives you the special ability to judge who is a "true" Christian or not.
That is SUCH a copout, phat.
That's exactly what all Christians say when trying to distance themselves from the more unsavory aspects of Christianity's history say.
quote:
Absolute Truth supercedes societal norms.
How so?
Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 7:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 8:26 AM nator has replied
 Message 105 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2005 9:00 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 167 (173341)
01-03-2005 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
01-03-2005 7:56 AM


Re: Does Belief ever evolve? What about human nature?
quote:
Yes. Sadly, many who profess Christianity are worse than unbelievers.
Worse than unbelievers?
Since when do unbelievers go out of their way to gang up on believers and tell them they should get out of the country, or they have no right to speak?
Where do you hear about Athiest groups trying to stop believers from doing anything, as long as it doesn't infringe upon others' rights?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 7:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4949 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 101 of 167 (173342)
01-03-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
01-03-2005 7:56 AM


Re: Does Belief ever evolve? What about human nature?
If Jesus were here today, in the flesh, He would NOT be an American.
I am sure that there would be many American Christians who could 'prove' that he was an American!
Yes. Sadly, many who profess Christianity are worse than unbelievers.
That is outrageous Phat.
How can you generalise like this?
You imply that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ is some sort of demon.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 7:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 8:32 AM Brian has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 167 (173344)
01-03-2005 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by nator
01-03-2005 8:05 AM


Re: General question about this topic
Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms.
How can I explain God? You will just say that He is a product of my imagination. Perhaps you feel that everything that we imagine or choose to imagine defines our belief. If an atheist does not "choose" to imagine God..then...POOF...there is no God! There are things that exist outside of your imagination. Outside of your comprehension. You would prefer to let in only that which is comforting and challenging to you. You have rejected religion, in part, because of the way that it has been perceived by you.
this gives you the special ability to judge who is a "true" Christian or not.
This what? What is "it" ?
That's exactly what all Christians say when trying to distance themselves from the more unsavory aspects of Christianity's history say.
Not at all. We are trying to distance our Spirituality...the living Spirit...from human foible and mistakes. We ourselves are no better than you or anyone else. From your perspective, however, our God is but a product of our minds. So I cannot explain or prove anything to you.
quote:
Absolute Truth supercedes societal norms.
How so?
Because God exceeds humanity.
Please explain what an "Ultimate Truth" is, and how it supercedes societal norms.
Again, I can only show you myself. I can not show you God.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-03-2005 06:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 8:05 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2005 9:00 AM Phat has replied
 Message 110 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 9:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 167 (173347)
01-03-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Brian
01-03-2005 8:12 AM


Re: Does Belief ever evolve? What about human nature?
Brian writes:
You imply that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ is some sort of demon.
No. But I am suggesting that a believer should be taken seriously. It is our God who raises the standard. Just as you may see children as absolved of certain responsibilities because of their age, I see unbelievers as absolved of responsibility as well. When I say that anyone who professes belief in an absolute greater than humanity and then abuses this belief by belittling others is worse...I mean worse. They profess belief in a greater standard. They are worse by spitting on their own standard.
My view maintains that God exists, and is a higher absolute than human wisdom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Brian, posted 01-03-2005 8:12 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 9:31 AM Phat has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 104 of 167 (173361)
01-03-2005 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
01-03-2005 8:26 AM


TOPIC!!
you have been told of another thread where this discussion IS the topic of the thread
http://EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? -->EvC Forum: What is a True Christian?
go there and sin no more on this page ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 8:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 9:02 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 105 of 167 (173363)
01-03-2005 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by nator
01-03-2005 8:05 AM


TOPIC!!!
you have been told of another thread where this discussion IS the topic of the thread
http://EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? -->EvC Forum: What is a True Christian?
go there and sin no more on this page ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 8:05 AM nator has not replied

  
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