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Author Topic:   Evolutionary Adaptation
Damouse
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 1 of 115 (317336)
06-03-2006 7:10 PM


Evolution is/has been about natural selection, right?

I've heard all sorts of theories about adaptation, but haven't found them all in one place.

so:
Is adaptation to an enviroment possible? Lets say you move a group of a hundred people out to an island thats made of broken glass. Assuming they died natural deaths, would their feet harden over the years? In other words, would they adapt to their surroundings and pass that on to their children?
Possible?

Edited by Damouse, : Fix

Edited by Admin, : Fix spelling error in title.


-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminWounded, posted 06-04-2006 6:33 PM Damouse has responded
 Message 6 by Wounded King, posted 06-06-2006 6:30 AM Damouse has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Modulous, posted 06-06-2006 8:29 AM Damouse has responded
 Message 9 by Someone who cares, posted 06-06-2006 10:59 PM Damouse has not yet responded

    
AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 115 (317700)
06-04-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Damouse
06-03-2006 7:10 PM


As it is at the moment this topic makes no sense to me.

Is the question whether the population's descendents would have tougher feet? Is the question whether that population of 100 would adapt to the environment?

Your question seems to have little if any connection to your initial statements.

Could you try an edit this to more fully develop the question so your meaning is clearer?

TTFN,

AW


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Replies to this message:
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Damouse
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 3 of 115 (318036)
06-05-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminWounded
06-04-2006 6:33 PM


i edited it. I meant this topic as more a question, but it is debatable.

Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.


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AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 115 (318207)
06-06-2006 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Damouse
06-05-2006 5:30 PM


To be honest I don't think your revisions have made anything any clearer. I'll promote this though to see if we can provide an answer to your question. Just say in the thread when you have a satisfactory answer and I can close it down.

TTFN,

AW


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AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 115 (318208)
06-06-2006 6:16 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 1952 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 6 of 115 (318210)
06-06-2006 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Damouse
06-03-2006 7:10 PM


Is adaptation to an enviroment possible? Lets say you move a group of a hundred people out to an island thats made of broken glass. Assuming they died natural deaths, would their feet harden over the years? In other words, would they adapt to their surroundings and pass that on to their children?

Rather than adaptation in line with natural selection what you are suggesting sounds more like acclimatisation followed by Lamarckian inheritance.

If the initial population develop harder feet then they are acclimating to the broken glass environment. Their children will not be born with hard feet however and will themselves have to acclimate. What you propose is that the offspring would inherit the acclimated traits that their parents have acquired through living on the island, this inheritance of acquired characteristics is Lamarckian evolution and while there are a number of accepted situations where it does apply most evolutionary studies focus on heritable genetic variation as a result of mutation.

If the broken glass environment was dangerous enough that it caused those with softer feet to die then you might have a situation where natural selection would operate. In such a case those individuals with a genetic trait predispoing them to harder feet might live longer and have more opportunity to reproduce and have more children, consequently the proportion of children with genes providing tough soles would increase.

By specifying that the broken glass is not lethal and the people die natural deaths, although on an island of broken glass bleeding to death seems pretty natural, you are effectively removing any selective pressure and making your scenario one in which we would not expect natural selection to be operating on the trait you have in mind.

TTFN,

WK


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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 7 of 115 (318226)
06-06-2006 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Damouse
06-03-2006 7:10 PM


Is adaptation to an enviroment possible? Lets say you move a group of a hundred people out to an island thats made of broken glass. Assuming they died natural deaths, would their feet harden over the years? In other words, would they adapt to their surroundings and pass that on to their children?
Possible?

If having harder feet meant greater reproductive success, then the population may well tend towards this solution. Your natural death clause would mean they, on average, die the same age. So the only way I can see an evolutionary solution being possible would be if resistance to broken glass wounds increased fecundity in some way (perhaps not tending to wounds allows more leisurely pursuits or perhaps females don't find bloody wounds attractive and prefer woundless mates or something).

Of course we are still ignoring the hundred people factor. Its quite a low number that represents a significant genetic bottleneck - but I have a feeling that you brought the number up arbitrarily and didn't mean for this to be an important point.

Another issue that needs discussing is Lamarckism (an issue discussed by WK). Obviously the 100 people themselves would not pass on their scar tissues/callouses to their offspring. Not unless some bizarre epigenetic effect came to light. There is some evidence that mother's who are starving (ie during a famine), will give birth to smaller kids (smaller kids will fit through smaller maternal bodies easier than big kids)...your environment can affect the offspring.

However, I don't think that would happen with feet scars - especially with such a small population size.


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Damouse
Member (Idle past 2763 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 8 of 115 (318480)
06-06-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Modulous
06-06-2006 8:29 AM


yes, 100 was a random number.

If you kill the problem down,, i suppose it cuts through to: can external physical changes affect the DNA of a human.

Another issue that needs discussing is Lamarckism (an issue discussed by WK). Obviously the 100 people themselves would not pass on their scar tissues/callouses to their offspring. Not unless some bizarre epigenetic effect came to light. There is some evidence that mother's who are starving (ie during a famine), will give birth to smaller kids (smaller kids will fit through smaller maternal bodies easier than big kids)...your environment can affect the offspring.

how would the enviroment affect the DNA, in this position, would the mother have enough nourishment to give birth to larger kids? What im saying is could the mother be giving birth to smaller kids because she's underfed?


-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3608 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 9 of 115 (318484)
06-06-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Damouse
06-03-2006 7:10 PM


Evolution is/has been about natural selection, right?
I've heard all sorts of theories about adaptation, but haven't found them all in one place.

so:
Is adaptation to an enviroment possible? Lets say you move a group of a hundred people out to an island thats made of broken glass. Assuming they died natural deaths, would their feet harden over the years? In other words, would they adapt to their surroundings and pass that on to their children?
Possible?

Well see, in that example you brought up, that's not how it would happen. Because acquired traits do NOT pass on to the descendants. Like if a person cut off his leg, the kid would not be born with a cut off leg. This world would be pretty wierd if that was possible!!!! But, adaptation can happen, but only within limits, within the kind of the organism. And, you can get variation, but also, within limits, within the kind of the organism. That's how we get people with all the different colors and looks. That's how we get dogs and wolves from probably one ancestor. But, we cannot get a human from a monkey or something to the sort. Hope this helps!


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5335
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 115 (318490)
06-06-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 10:59 PM


But, adaptation can happen, but only within limits, within the kind of the organism. And, you can get variation, but also, within limits, within the kind of the organism.

What sets these "limits?"

What is a "kind?"

This is awfully well-trodden territory here at EvC, but I've yet to see even a good try at answers to those two questions. You might want to read some old threads here in Biological Evolution before you offer your answers.

Edited by Coragyps, : poor typing skilz

Edited by Coragyps, : vurry poor typing skilzz


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 591 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 115 (318492)
06-06-2006 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 10:59 PM


And, you can get variation, but also, within limits, within the kind of the organism.

please explain the mechanism that limits variation, and prevents variation from compounding.


אָרַח

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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3608 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 12 of 115 (318499)
06-06-2006 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coragyps
06-06-2006 11:05 PM


What sets these "limits?"

What is a "kind?"

This is awfully well-trodden territory here at EvC, but I've yet to see even a good try at answers to those two questions. You might want to read some old threads here in Biological Evolution before you offer your answers.

GOD set those limits!

I cannot define kind exactly, it would more likely be like a family, but niether can you define species. Or can you?


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jar
Member
Posts: 30702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 13 of 115 (318501)
06-06-2006 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 11:20 PM


GOD set those limits!

You over in the science forums now. Answers like that don't carry much weight.

If you have some evidence bring it on but goddidit ain't gonna cut it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3608 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 14 of 115 (318502)
06-06-2006 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
06-06-2006 11:06 PM


please explain the mechanism that limits variation, and prevents variation from compounding.

It's not like there is a mechanism for it, to stop a monkey from evolving into a human, or a reptile from evolving into a bird. It is the genetic code of an organism. The code is "preset" when the organism is born. There is code for only the traits and organs and tissues of that organism. No new code can be added to the genetic code of an organism to make it evolve into a different kind of organism. It cannot happen. It never has. It never will. That fish over there will never have code added to it, naturally, to make it start evolving legs or parts of them or something. It's not going to happen.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3608 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 15 of 115 (318503)
06-06-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
06-06-2006 11:24 PM


You over in the science forums now. Answers like that don't carry much weight.

If you have some evidence bring it on but goddidit ain't gonna cut it.

I am a Creationist. I believe God created all the creatures, so He set the limits to the variation as well. This is what I believe. This is my reply to the question. I, as a Creationist, cannot offer any other answer, because there is only one answer for this question, "God did it." If you don't want to hear that, then don't ask those questions that have only one answer a Creationist can and will give.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
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