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Author Topic:   Evolutionary Adaptation
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 16 of 115 (318510)
06-06-2006 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 11:28 PM


If you can't come up with a better answer, stay out of the science forums.

That is why Biblical Creationism will never be science.

But it is still an insufficient answer. I too am a Creationist, a Christian Creationist, but I have not decided to forego the god given capability of critical thinking and adopt wilfull ignorance. Like every major US Christian Church, I accept that the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation of how GOD did it and reject the teaching of Biblical Creationism or ID. I oppose the wilfull attempt by many Christians to raise children in ignorance.

As said in the open letter Clergy Project, signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy:

We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge.

If you can present evidence that can be independant verified using scientific rigor that can show where there is some barrier that cannot allow microevolution to accumulate over time into macro changes, then fine, bring it on. Until then the evidence that life evolved that humans are just another of the primates, is overwhelming. To deny that takes an act of wilfull ignorance.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Someone who cares, posted 06-06-2006 11:28 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 25 by Someone who cares, posted 06-08-2006 9:39 PM jar has responded

  
AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 115 (318600)
06-07-2006 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
06-06-2006 11:41 PM


Someone who cares' views are not the topic of this thread, if you wish to discuss them with him then set up a new thread.

TTFN,

AW


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 06-06-2006 11:41 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2015 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 18 of 115 (318601)
06-07-2006 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Damouse
06-06-2006 10:47 PM


how would the enviroment affect the DNA, in this position, would the mother have enough nourishment to give birth to larger kids? What im saying is could the mother be giving birth to smaller kids because she's underfed?

In the scenario Modulous described it would not be a genetic change, it would be the lack of sufficient nourishment for the child as you suggest.

There are examples of epigenetic factors such as DNA methylation and changes in histone acetylation/methylation which can be environmentally induced and produce heritable variation which is not due to the primary sequence of the DNA.

TTFN,

WK

Edited by Wounded King, : added link to article on epigenetics


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 25 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 19 of 115 (318641)
06-07-2006 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Wounded King
06-07-2006 4:50 AM


In the scenario Modulous described it would not be a genetic change, it would be the lack of sufficient nourishment for the child as you suggest.

True, but the case I was trying to remember was that this tendency appears in the undernourished adult's offspring and perhaps their offspring as well...which would imply an epigenetic influence. Unfortunately I'm failing to find the cause but the study surrounded some small European village.

The only similar study I can find is about a Dutch famine where the infants had a tendency towards obesity - perhaps an epigenetic instruction advising the offspring to build up a store of fat in case of famine.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 115 (318774)
06-07-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 11:20 PM


I cannot define kind exactly, it would more likely be like a family, but niether can you define species. Or can you?

"A reproductive community."


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5349
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 21 of 115 (318797)
06-07-2006 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Someone who cares
06-06-2006 11:20 PM


I cannot define kind exactly, it would more likely be like a family....

That doesn't seem very likely biblically, as Leviticus 11 (or Deut.14) has "kinds" of herons, hawks, and ravens, and lists owls, great owls, and little owls separately, apparently as "kinds" of their own.
This message is a reply to:
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Crue Knight
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 115 (318961)
06-08-2006 12:48 AM


quote:
Evolution is/has been about natural selection, right?
I've heard all sorts of theories about adaptation, but haven't found them all in one place.

so:
Is adaptation to an enviroment possible? Lets say you move a group of a hundred people out to an island thats made of broken glass. Assuming they died natural deaths, would their feet harden over the years? In other words, would they adapt to their surroundings and pass that on to their children?
Possible?



No, a person in the poorer countries (where everyone goes barefoot and has hardened skin) still have children that has soft feet. Our ancestors mostly had barefeet and were more physicaly stronger and hard working than todays people. We are all still born soft and need to workout to be strong.

quote:
There is some evidence that mother's who are starving (ie during a famine), will give birth to smaller kids (smaller kids will fit through smaller maternal bodies easier than big kids)...your environment can affect the offspring.

That could be because the mother was starving and didnt had enough nutrients to privide a normal sized baby. There are some short mothers though, who gives birth to larger babies, which also grow larger than their parents.

quote:
If you have some evidence bring it on but goddidit ain't gonna cut it.


If God created the universe andevery atom of this universe. It would be possible for Him to change anything He wanted in science, wouldn't He?


Read "Time Has an End" by, H. Camping for great evdence that the Bible is true and the word of God. You can read it online at www.timehasanend.org
Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2015 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 23 of 115 (318977)
06-08-2006 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Crue Knight
06-08-2006 12:48 AM


It would be possible for Him to change anything He wanted in science, wouldn't He?

Which is precisely why 'God did it' is a useless explanation in a scientific forum. It doesn't explain anything it merely attributes the fact that it happened to God and then gives up and goes home for a bath. If we can't rely on somethings behaviot to be at least somewhatconsistent from one instant to the next then the opportunity to studying it scientifically is virtually non-existent.

TTFN,

WK


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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 24 of 115 (319021)
06-08-2006 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Crue Knight
06-08-2006 12:48 AM


why Goddidit is so useless as an explanation
jar writes:

If you have some evidence bring it on but goddidit ain't gonna cut it.

to which Crue Knight replied :

quote:
If God created the universe and every atom of this universe. It would be possible for Him to change anything He wanted in science, wouldn't He?

Sure could, and if that were true, if GOD actually did do that, then we need to abandon science and return to magic.

If what you say is true, then we can not make any predictions about any event. We cannot know if water freezes at 32o F because that is a property of water, or because God stepped in and changed it. We cannt tell what the real strength of the concrete holding up the Dumbarton Bridge is, or the steel supports either.

A world where some power can step in and change things on a whim is a world of magic, one of wizards not scientists.

Sure it is possible that God might step in and change things, but that is not a world where you can then trust reality.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 25 of 115 (319309)
06-08-2006 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
06-06-2006 11:41 PM


If you can present evidence that can be independant verified using scientific rigor that can show where there is some barrier that cannot allow microevolution to accumulate over time into macro changes, then fine, bring it on. Until then the evidence that life evolved that humans are just another of the primates, is overwhelming. To deny that takes an act of wilfull ignorance.

Ok, let's start with the genetic code. The barrier is the genetic code, the DNA. See, the DNA is preprogrammed when an offspring is born. The code, even with mutations, cannot produce new evolving body parts or tissues or cells. The code of a fish doesn't have anything in it about legs. Now, even if a mutation happened, or millions of them, this would not change the code, the fish still doesn't have any code for legs, or for part of them, or to even start evolving them. So, the fish could not ever evolve legs and crawl out on land, even with many generations filled with mutations, it won't happen. A mutation only changes previously existing information, it cannot make new information for things the creature does not already have.

And I am sorry to hear that you are a Creationist who believes in evolution.

I am not ignorant, I read my Bible, and I believe God Created all the creatures and plants. And I have yet to see evolution prove itself, macroevolution.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 06-08-2006 9:42 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 41 by Isaac, posted 06-08-2006 10:05 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 43 by Wounded King, posted 06-09-2006 5:14 AM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 46 by Crue Knight, posted 06-09-2006 8:49 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 50 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2006 9:02 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 26 of 115 (319310)
06-08-2006 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
06-07-2006 1:33 PM


"A reproductive community."

That's pretty vague. Anything more precise?


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 06-07-2006 1:33 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 27 of 115 (319313)
06-08-2006 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 9:39 PM


The barrier is the genetic code, the DNA.

Why? How? What is the barrier?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Someone who cares, posted 06-08-2006 9:39 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 115 (319314)
06-08-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Someone who cares
06-08-2006 9:41 PM


That's pretty vague.

What's vague about it? You don't know what reproduction is? You don't know what a community is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Someone who cares, posted 06-08-2006 9:41 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Someone who cares, posted 06-08-2006 9:52 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 29 of 115 (319317)
06-08-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Coragyps
06-07-2006 3:39 PM


That doesn't seem very likely biblically, as Leviticus 11 (or Deut.14) has "kinds" of herons, hawks, and ravens, and lists owls, great owls, and little owls separately, apparently as "kinds" of their own.

That's why I said I can't really define it. Linnaeus probably wouldn't have been able to classify the taxons exactly where the Biblical "kind" could fit in.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 30 of 115 (319319)
06-08-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
06-08-2006 9:42 PM


Why? How? What is the barrier?

You think we can continue discussing this here?

The barrier is the genetic code itself! During meiosis, the information is taken from the parents, and so the offspring will be like the parents. When it is born, the code is preset. The code cannot be altered to allow changes that would start evolving new body parts or something.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 06-08-2006 9:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-08-2006 9:52 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 06-08-2006 10:01 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 06-08-2006 10:02 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
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