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Author Topic:   Morality! Thorn in Darwin's side or not?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 438 (737933)
10-02-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Wyrdly
10-02-2014 4:50 AM


In the absence of a god what reason do i have to behave according to anyone's so called morality?
I'm always personally amazed that people, and in particular Christians ask such a question.
There are plenty of selfish reasons to practice good behavior including not wanting to be ostracized or locked up, and wanting good behavior in return. Much of morality involves nothing much more than treating others as you yourself would like to be treated.
In the absence of God, do you really think that everyone would decide to drive on the wrong side of the street or to eat their own children? Really?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Wyrdly, posted 10-02-2014 4:50 AM Wyrdly has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 438 (742507)
11-20-2014 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Colbard
11-20-2014 9:21 PM


For if it becomes necessary to kill to survive or develop a new species, all that may be considered fair and honorable, can be thrown out the door, the end justifying the means.
This is idiotic. Evolution is not planned by humans. Accordingly evolution does not represent or contradict morality. The triceratops are all gone. But nobody human caused that.
Evolution ultimately has no rights for anyone to live, or any to have quality of life, or any to claim equality.
Neither does gravity. Or photosynthesis. Or the weak force.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Colbard, posted 11-20-2014 9:21 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 6:52 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 369 of 438 (743345)
11-30-2014 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Colbard
11-30-2014 12:26 AM


Re: Life and love
x
Edited by NoNukes, : effing idiocy needs no response

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 12:26 AM Colbard has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 370 of 438 (743346)
11-30-2014 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Colbard
11-30-2014 12:16 AM


It is assumed by evolution that this will be an upward progress, not to be enjoyed by the predecessors - at all.
No, upward progress is not assumed.
That is immoral don't you think?
I suppose that if someone believed all of existence was about them, then the fact that their culture continued to progress after their death would seem unfair. However such a belief would be irrational.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 12:16 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 5:55 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 382 of 438 (743657)
12-03-2014 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Dogmafood
12-02-2014 8:40 PM


The ability of individual humans to adapt to changing environments = 7 billion humans. This shows that our qualities are more fit than, say, the carrier pigeon's were. It is not the level of melatonin in our skin that has led to so many humans.
I'm not sure what this example illustrates. The primary evolutionary defect of the carrier pigeon was that they tasted yummy to humans.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Dogmafood, posted 12-02-2014 8:40 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by JonF, posted 12-03-2014 8:20 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 391 of 438 (743736)
12-03-2014 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Dogmafood
12-03-2014 5:47 AM


No perhaps not but they would include human intellect which is where the technology comes from. Being able to build a rocket ship is not really that different, in this context, from being able to build a nest. They both stem from the creature's evolved qualities.
No they don't both stem from evolved qualities. I have no shot at building even the simplest house. I believe myself to be as intelligent as people who can, but I don't have the know how to make a house. Technology is something we pass down by writing in parallel with any evolution that might be going on.
I highly doubt that you have evolved to be able to build a working rocket ship. You have exactly the same ability to do so as did Abraham Lincoln.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Dogmafood, posted 12-03-2014 5:47 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Dogmafood, posted 12-04-2014 6:11 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 397 of 438 (743796)
12-04-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Dogmafood
12-04-2014 6:11 AM


Not so different from a squirrel or a bird using last years nest or the learned behaviour of any animal.
I disagree. It is much different from the learned behavior of most animals.
The learned behavior for most animals is the animals they can hang out with. Humans can draw on much more than that simply by leveraging reading and writing. Beyond that, you don't have to learn how to program your smart phone because I can do that for you. So you can even draw on stuff you cannot understand.
One of my favorite human inventions is calculus. The topic is easy enough to teach to high school students. Yet it was beyond all by one or two people during the time of Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz. Yet no one ought to be insisting that high school students are more mentally evolved that Newton's peers.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Dogmafood, posted 12-04-2014 6:11 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Dogmafood, posted 12-05-2014 5:15 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 404 of 438 (743846)
12-05-2014 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Dogmafood
12-05-2014 5:15 AM


Our evolved qualities that allow us to kill the bear and make the coat have enabled us to survive in a wider range of environments.
Being able to kill a bear with a gun that you are not capable of making does not demonstrate that you have evolved. That killing would instead be evidence of a completely different process.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Dogmafood, posted 12-05-2014 5:15 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Dogmafood, posted 12-06-2014 9:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 413 of 438 (744034)
12-07-2014 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by Dogmafood
12-06-2014 9:01 AM


The evolved quality is the intellect that allows us to solve problems. Being able to solve problems without waiting for natural selection to do it must be on the plus side for making babies.
On the plus side yes, but if selection is not involved, then we are talking about something other than evolution.
Having a moral code is an attempt to solve problems. Those elements of our moral codes that show themselves to work (that is to help us make more babies) are retained over time. This retention is an objective filtering by means of natural selection.
I don't buy it. People who don't follow our moral code get shunned or locked up. Those kinds of penalties are not natural selection. I'm not convinced that morality is inheritable in any substantial way at all. For humans a model in which ethics and morals are learned seems to work pretty well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Dogmafood, posted 12-06-2014 9:01 AM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Colbard, posted 12-08-2014 9:04 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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