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Author Topic:   Morality! Thorn in Darwin's side or not?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5705
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 361 of 438 (743279)
11-29-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Colbard
11-29-2014 7:49 AM


WTF?

Is this like declaring you won and leaving?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Colbard, posted 11-29-2014 7:49 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Colbard, posted 11-29-2014 11:56 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 362 of 438 (743299)
11-29-2014 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Colbard
11-28-2014 10:16 PM


Colbard writes:

"Rising higher and higher on the moral pedestal, evolution carries mankind to a point of perfection, where he is god."."
- Satan


In evolution, there is no "higher"; there is no "perfection". There is only fitness for the current conditions.

Apparently Satan has been giving you bad information.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Colbard, posted 11-28-2014 10:16 PM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Colbard, posted 11-29-2014 11:58 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
jasonlang
Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 07-14-2005


Message 363 of 438 (743313)
11-29-2014 1:31 PM


"perfect" morality is relative. Different cultures will give you different answers of what is "perfect". e.g. Colbard probably isn't a vegetarian, and he thinks he has perfect morality, thus he thinks killing and eating animals is 100% moral and justified, and he thinks Colbard can't possibly be any more moral than he is. Yet, a Buddhist would see his merry meat eating ways as deeply flawed and immoral.

Here's a theory: morality isn't about being nice. Moral rules are about group survival. This fits with the idea that ethics evolved to help communal animals survive and compete with other groups. So, what you would expect to see in biblical "moral" rules are expressly things that aid group cohesion and reproduction. Killing is bad in biblical morality, because it hurts the group, not because it's inherently bad. This is clear, because whenever there's a benefit to the group then killing is suddenly OK in the bible.

You can kill gay people in the bible, that's moral. probably because gay people aren't producing babies, which is their duty, so you have the threat of death: pair up and produce kids, or else.

you can kill rebellious children in the bible. This also acts as a deterrent to disobedient & antisocial behavior. Plus you can commit capital punishment on the real bad eggs.

The other big abomination is eating shellfish. Well, shellfish are notorious for giving food poisoning, and this was way back before antibiotics, so yeah, again this is clearly about survival, but dressed up in a "morality" message. This is the most clearly silly one to say there's any possible "morality" angle about eating shellfish, but it's listed as an "abomination" next to homosexuality.


Replies to this message:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 745 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 364 of 438 (743338)
11-29-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Theodoric
11-29-2014 9:29 AM


Theodoric writes:

Is this like declaring you won and leaving?

No, I'm not leaving, I'd miss getting hit by you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Theodoric, posted 11-29-2014 9:29 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 745 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 365 of 438 (743339)
11-29-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by ringo
11-29-2014 11:22 AM


Ringo writes:

In evolution, there is no "higher"; there is no "perfection". There is only fitness for the current conditions.

A very good answer coming from your stance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 11-29-2014 11:22 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 745 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 366 of 438 (743341)
11-30-2014 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by jasonlang
11-29-2014 1:31 PM


Jasonlang writes:

"perfect" morality is relative.

Thanks for the summarized intro that's good English.

So if is relative for a group, it can also be relative for individuals, right?

But in a group the majority tries to keep the rule. Let's hope we are not born into a baby burning cult, or in many cases let's hope we are not born female.

If there is any morality in a society named so or considered to be so, then there must also be equal versions of immorality.

History proves that there a lot of both.
If these values are just relative to culture and circumstance, and can be so diverse so as to actually contradict each ideal?

It is vanity because all life is temporary, and what follows the death of one and their ideals, can be replaced by another.

It is assumed by evolution that this will be an upward progress, not to be enjoyed by the predecessors - at all. A pointless existence. In the end you are nothing, forgotten, less than a howl in the wind. That is immoral don't you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jasonlang, posted 11-29-2014 1:31 PM jasonlang has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 1:27 AM Colbard has responded

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 745 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 367 of 438 (743342)
11-30-2014 12:26 AM


Life and love
The moral laws of God demand that whatever is given life, has it permanently, and should there be any disasters then provision should be made for its full recovery, without interfering with free choice.

If you are alive, the justice of God ensures your eternal survival, unless that justice is scorned as of no value, because it may demand 'unwelcome' changes for the better.

That puts life, love and morality on an equal plain with one law for all, whereas in evolution, its every man or group or nation to its own. And as we know there is no end in sight for that scenario, because even if an ideal global utopia is built (as it will be shortly), it could be over within a few years, due to mortality.

Edited by Colbard, : shorten


Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2014 1:02 AM Colbard has responded
 Message 369 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 1:03 AM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15485
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 368 of 438 (743344)
11-30-2014 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Colbard
11-30-2014 12:26 AM


Re: Life and love
Where are you getting your information about God from? Does he speak to you, or do you just make stuff up?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 12:26 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 5:47 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 369 of 438 (743345)
11-30-2014 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Colbard
11-30-2014 12:26 AM


Re: Life and love
x

Edited by NoNukes, : effing idiocy needs no response


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 12:26 AM Colbard has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 370 of 438 (743346)
11-30-2014 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Colbard
11-30-2014 12:16 AM


It is assumed by evolution that this will be an upward progress, not to be enjoyed by the predecessors - at all.

No, upward progress is not assumed.

That is immoral don't you think?

I suppose that if someone believed all of existence was about them, then the fact that their culture continued to progress after their death would seem unfair. However such a belief would be irrational.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 12:16 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 5:55 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Colbard
Member (Idle past 745 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 371 of 438 (743352)
11-30-2014 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Dr Adequate
11-30-2014 1:02 AM


Re: Life and love
Dr Adequate writes:

Where are you getting your information about God from? Does he speak to you, or do you just make stuff up?

I am generally deaf to spiritual knowledge, so I have to get clues from the KJV, people, nature and life, and work on that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2014 1:02 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2014 3:59 PM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 745 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 372 of 438 (743353)
11-30-2014 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by NoNukes
11-30-2014 1:27 AM


NoNukes writes:

I suppose that if someone believed all of existence was about them, then the fact that their culture continued to progress after their death would seem unfair. However such a belief would be irrational.

Morals are rational. As rational as the predictability of physical laws.
And if that is true then it opens up the second scope by which to measure nature.

Two perspectives of knowledge, the natural and the spiritual, and if understood correctly they agree.

It is rational to expect life everlasting according to moral law, but irrational if there was no more life, as you said.

Edited by Colbard, : add


This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 1:27 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Taq, posted 12-01-2014 3:42 PM Colbard has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15485
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 373 of 438 (743398)
11-30-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Colbard
11-30-2014 5:47 AM


Re: Life and love
I am generally deaf to spiritual knowledge, so I have to get clues from the KJV, people, nature and life, and work on that.

I'm trying to imagine you getting a clue ... no, I'm not forming any sort of mental image here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 5:47 AM Colbard has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 374 of 438 (743490)
12-01-2014 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Colbard
11-30-2014 5:55 AM


Two perspectives of knowledge, the natural and the spiritual, and if understood correctly they agree.

From what you have presented, only the natural can be said to be knowledge. The spiritual is based on belief which is the opposite of knowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Colbard, posted 11-30-2014 5:55 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by 1.61803, posted 12-02-2014 2:01 PM Taq has responded
 Message 401 by Colbard, posted 12-05-2014 6:53 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2664
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 375 of 438 (743580)
12-02-2014 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Taq
12-01-2014 3:42 PM


Knowledge if founded in facts and beliefs are founded in the mind.
The only time beliefs can be considered knowledge is when they are are in accordance to the truth.

At least this is my take on it.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Taq, posted 12-01-2014 3:42 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Taq, posted 12-02-2014 2:59 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
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