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Author | Topic: Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
This paper talks of Non-Random Distribution of TEs, where the TEs non-randomly occur in what appears to be selected sites. First, Taq answered this question earlier in the thread. I suggest you re-read Messages 733, 736 & 743. Second, please re-read my post Message 735. Third, here is the paper you cited. Fourth, from that paper:
However, as mentioned above and observed previously (reviewed in [44]), LINEs, SINEs and some LTR retrotransposon families accumulate preferentially in areas that are near genes. A nonrandom distribution, shadow. Near genes.The paper doesn't say near WHICH genes. Overall, LTR retrotransposons are found to be most abundant in pericentromeric heterochromatin and least abundant in the more gene-rich arms on all chromosomes. The TEs are all over the place. They hop all over the genome with MOST of them ending up in the pericentromeric heterochromatin. The TEs do tend to hop into introns or exons but WHICH ONES? It's random! And the paper doesn't say if the TEs are beneficial, deleterious or neutral. Which means that the TEs are random with respect to fitness!
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined:
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You seem to have missed the point.
From the paper:
Of the 1991 SINEs discovered, 1174 were found in the introns or UTRs (untranslated regions) of genes and 21 in putative coding exons (data not shown). An intron is an area between exons which does not code for the protein. An exon codes for the protein. A SINE has a 1% chance of landing in an exon. Which exon, shadow?Which protein will be affected? Will that effect be helpful, harmful or neutral? No answer?That's because you don't know. TEs are not deterministic. The TEs' location in the genome is random with respect to which gene they hop next to.The TEs' insertion in the genome is random with respect to fitness because the effect on the protein (beneficial/deleterious/neutral) is unknown.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
I was stating that to me the authors of the paper did not state that the TEs were random, but in a sense determstic per shapiro Let's try the lottery analogy again. Is a lottery "in a sense deterministic" because it uses the same PROCESS -- a machine that spits out one of a bunch of ping pong balls -- to determine the outcome every week? An SOS response is a process.A TE that preferentially targets introns and exons is a process. They aren't the outcome.The outcome is random. Capiche?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Here's another paper.
Insertion site preferences of the P transposable element in Drosophila melanogaster, PNAS March 28, 2000 vol. 97 no. 7 3347-3351 From the conclusion:
P element insertion is nonrandom, and most insertions occur within a few hundred bases of the transcription start site of a gene. Sounds good so far, right? Why is there nonrandom insertion?
It is likely that a great deal of this preference is caused by chromatin accessibility, as these are the same chromosomal regions that must be accessed by the transcriptional control machinery. OK. So the physical structure of the DNA is important.
In this report we present evidence that this local preference may depend more on DNA structure than on primary sequence. Uh oh. It depends on the physical structure of the DNA. Not the primary sequence. Primary sequence = the gene. The insertion doesn't have anything to do with the gene. Does this help, shadow?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
However wouldn't the number of different TEs that target a location make them more or less determistic, and thus possibly more or less random? What do you mean the number of TEs? The different types of TEs? A whole horde of TEs?
Now if each different TE has a unique effect on the location it targets, then it would be less random to any change in that location. I don't understand your question. Most TEs are neutral. From Message 735. Transposable elements as sources of variation in animals and plants, PNAS July 22, 1997 vol. 94 no. 15 7704-7711.
On average, TEs that insert within the exons of genes are most likely to result in null mutations because of the sensitivity of these regions to frame shift mutations and the lack of tolerance of highly conserved regions to most mutations of any kind. However, those mutations that are not simply inviable can provide interesting and sometimes spectacular phenotypic variability. Remember. In the paper you cited ONLY ONE PERCENT of the SINES landed in an exon. And I think you need to be reminded that these are the ACCUMULATED mutations throughout the entire evolutionary history of that genome. One percent. And the majority of that one percent were NULL. No effect.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Do you accept McCllintocks findings and if so are these random mutations? Yes. They are random. Percy did a walk thru. Do you want me to elaborate? DNA repair is yet another mechanism that Shapiro lumps into his category NGE.It is a process. The outcome is random. Each and every mechanism Shapiro calls NGE is random.DNA release and competence for DNA uptake? Random. Prophage excision? Random. Horizontal transfer of intgrated conjugative elements (ICE)? Random. Mutator polymerase? Random. CTnDOT excision and conjugal transfer? Random. T-DNA transfer to plant cell? Random. Stress-induced IS elements? Random. Must I list them all?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
He says what were referred to as "random accidents" are regulated biochemical systems that are a source of genetic variation . No. No no no no no.The biochemical systems ARE THE SOURCE OF THE RANDOM MUTATIONS. For the love of christ.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
I disagree.
I think you continue to twist Dr. Shapiro's ideas to your own ends. And I've written to Dr. Shapiro to see if we can clear this up.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Got an answer. That was quick!
My statement is in red.
Cells don't "learn by trial and error". Nor do they "discover". NGE mechanisms simply respond to various stimuli (stress, etc.) and kick off a biochemical pathway that alters the genome. What we know is that cells have sensory systems and that cells can transmit and process information that these systems generate. The deeper we look into cell sensory and memory systems, such as piRNA loci in animals and CRISPRs in prokaryotes, the more difficult it is to say that any of them are simple. I personally do not know how cell computation works, but I can certainly name a lot of molecules that are involved in those processes. We have a great deal to learn about how cell information-processing operates and influences natural genetic engineering. That, it seems to me, is where our experimental focus should be in evolution science. Looks like Shapiro just re-iterated what I said. This, I think, is a working definition of "sentient" as used by Shapiro. I'm going to ask him something else.Stay tuned.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
I told him about the thread and gave him the address.
In the meantime, here's his reply re: random.
95+% of Ty1-4 insertions in Saccharomyces cerevisiae do not insert into exons but upstream of PolIII promoters. They interact with PolIII transcription factors. This is what I mean by non-random. There are many similar biases in NGE, although generally not as strongly biased as Ty elements. Non-random does not mean strictly deterministic, but just about all the systems I know have some kind of targeting interactions. I have tabulated these a number of times (Table 5, Shapiro 2002 Ann NYAS & Table 1, Shapiro 2005, Gene). I recommend you look at these tabulations and the underlying references to get an idea of how extensive this literature is. I also suggest you look at the data on P factor homing to see what highly non-random but also highly non-deterministic targeting can be (e.g. Bender, W. and A. Hudson, P element homing to the Drosophila bithorax complex. Development, 2000. 127(18): p. 3981-92.) Some of these examples will blow your mind and make you think twice before you say "random" again. Let me know if I'm right about that. He's bound and determined to use "highly non-random but also highly non-deterministic" instead of "random". I haven't got access to the P factor paper he mentions, but I found this one: A novel mechanism for P element homing in Drosophila, PNAS June 8, 1999 vol. 96 no. 12 6856-6861
Source This is literally the first sentence of that paper.
P element insertion is essentially random at the scale of the genome.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
He is stating that they do this but does not say by trial and error, but by these sensory systems. Sensory systems can be as simple as a molecule docking in a sensor. Sensory transduction in Escherichia coli: two complementary pathways of information processing that involve methylated proteins, PNAS August 1, 1977 vol. 74 no. 8 3312-3316
The function of a sensory receptor cell is to detect external stimuli and transduce this information into a signal that elicits the appropriate behavioral response. In bacterial chemotaxis stimuli are detected by approximately 20 different types of chemoreceptors which transmit information along a network of converging pathways. That's hardly guidance, shadow.
I don't interpret that as being "learn by trial and error." I was quoting you to Shapiro, shadow. You said cells "learn by trial and error".
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Maybe you should say "mutations are non-random, but their effect on fitness are not yet known and may well be deterministic". That's exactly it, shadow.Shapiro said "highly nondeterministic" and you say "may well be deterministic". Shapiro said "not intelligently designed" and you say "intelligently designed". You are using Shapiro's work to justify your beliefs. You have no interest in understanding his work. None at all. You just want someone with authority to make you feel better about your IDist beliefs.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
would you agree that this peer reviewed paper, if correct, describes non-random functions including those of fitness? The paper is free. You really ought to read it. It's ... something.
What we have in mind is a bacterial version of genome cybernetics, by which we mean the ability of the genome to perform information processing and alter itself accordingly. You really can pick em, shadow. To support this notion, the authors cite this: Bacterial wisdom, Gdel's theorem and creative genomic webs, Physica A: Statistical and Theoretical Physics Volume 248, Issues 1-2, 1 January 1998, Pages 57-76. From that paper.
The new picture of the genome as an adaptive cybernetic unit with self-awareness is presented in Sections 6-8.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Look. You want to endorse wackadoo junk you find in some journal, help yourself.
DNA IS SELF AWARE!!!!
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Take a look at the paper, Taq.
It's an opinion piece. (Note to shadow: that means no peer review!) The underlying references are hilarious. Not only do we have one that claims DNA is self aware, there's another that claims to analyze the genome using Chomsky. The language of genes, D. Searls, Nature 420, 211-217 (14 November 2002). And the epilogue is priceless.
Could, then, our internal and external linguistic communication and social intelligence be traced back to bacteria — the simplest of all organisms? Where's barbara when you need her?This is right up her alley.
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