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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 136 of 202 (671393)
08-24-2012 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 6:42 PM


Re: Boo-boo
Do you really believe that you can trace racial differences to one of Noah's sons ... ?

I posted below that Dwakins agrees with this whole trend of thought ...

Surely some mistake?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 6:42 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 137 of 202 (671394)
08-24-2012 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 10:50 AM


Creationism Goes On Surprising Me
Just when I thought I'd seen it all ...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 10:50 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 964 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 138 of 202 (671432)
08-25-2012 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 11:52 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
It's not the latest published book, not even by just those authors.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 11:52 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 139 of 202 (671458)
08-25-2012 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Percy
08-24-2012 7:30 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Percy writes:

we have only directly observed macroevolution in very short-lived species, such as bacteria, fruit flies

Surely, macro-evolution in bacteria should be referred to as micro-evolution by its very nature?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Percy, posted 08-24-2012 7:30 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 9:11 AM Big_Al35 has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 140 of 202 (671459)
08-25-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Percy
08-24-2012 7:30 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Percy writes:

we have only directly observed macroevolution in very short-lived species, such as bacteria, fruit flies

You might want to check out this link regarding fruit flies ---> http://www.icr.org/article/2602/

Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Percy, posted 08-24-2012 7:30 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 141 of 202 (671484)
08-26-2012 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Big_Al35
08-25-2012 2:25 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Big_Al35 writes:

Surely, macro-evolution in bacteria should be referred to as micro-evolution by its very nature?

"Micro" is a modifier of "evolution", not of "bacteria". "Micro" refers to the degree of evolutionary change, not to the size of the organism. Bacteria can experience a macroevolutionary degree of change.

Big_Al35 in Message 140 writes:

You might want to check out this link regarding fruit flies ---> http://www.icr.org/article/2602/

You might want to check out rule 5 of the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

But you seem to be arguing away from the topic. The question is the difference between micro and macroevolution. You seem to want to argue whether macroevolution ever happens.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Big_Al35, posted 08-25-2012 2:25 PM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2012 11:04 AM Percy has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 142 of 202 (671489)
08-26-2012 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Percy
08-26-2012 9:11 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Percy writes:

"Micro" is a modifier of "evolution", not of "bacteria". "Micro" refers to the degree of evolutionary change, not to the size of the organism. Bacteria can experience a macroevolutionary degree of change.

All references to evolution on bacteria are referred to as micro not macro. A simple google search will tell you that. Here is one example
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/...ary/article/_0/evoscales_03

Percy writes:

But you seem to be arguing away from the topic. The question is the difference between micro and macroevolution. You seem to want to argue whether macroevolution ever happens.

Well there is no point in defining macro-evolution if it doesn't happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 9:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Huntard, posted 08-26-2012 11:48 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 11:53 AM Big_Al35 has responded

    
Huntard
Member
Posts: 2860
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 143 of 202 (671490)
08-26-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Big_Al35
08-26-2012 11:04 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Big_Al35 writes:

All references to evolution on bacteria are referred to as micro not macro. A simple google search will tell you that.


Funny, when I searched google scholar, this article was on the first page:

Macro-and microevolution of bacteria in symbiotic systems

From the abstract:

quote:
Macroevolutionary rearrangements of bacterial genomes result from the structural changes in their populations, wherein various selection modes are combined with stochastic processes (genetic drift, population waves) induced in the symbiotic systems.

All micro-evolution, indeed...


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Percy
Member
Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 144 of 202 (671491)
08-26-2012 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Big_Al35
08-26-2012 11:04 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Big_Al35 writes:

All references to evolution on bacteria are referred to as micro not macro. A simple google search will tell you that. Here is one example
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/...ary/article/_0/evoscales_03

A simple Google search of "bacteria macroevolution" returns 148,000 results, and of "bacteria speciation" returns 740,000 results. Perhaps you had a typo when you tried it?

Well there is no point in defining macro-evolution if it doesn't happen.

How can you tell whether some undefined thing has ever happened? As I said before, if you yourself are defining macroevolution differently from everyone else here then there's no point in arguing whether it has ever happened.

But again, whether macroevolution has ever happened is not the topic of this thread. No one here is trying to avoid discussion of the evidence for macroevolution. There are some old threads about macroevolution that are still open:

Or you could propose a new thread. But I think all this thread is trying to do is reach a consensus on the definition. If you go back to Message 1 you'll see that RAZD was hoping to explore the distinction between micro and macroevolution at quite a detailed level.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2012 11:04 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2012 3:10 PM Percy has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 145 of 202 (671492)
08-26-2012 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Percy
08-26-2012 11:53 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Percy writes:

A simple Google search of "bacteria macroevolution" returns 148,000 results, and of "bacteria speciation" returns 740,000 results. Perhaps you had a typo when you tried it?

Sorry, no typos. Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution.

http://carm.org/...ctually-observing-macroevolution-bacteria


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 11:53 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2012 3:40 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 147 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 3:42 PM Big_Al35 has responded
 Message 148 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2012 3:45 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 149 by crashfrog, posted 08-26-2012 8:15 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9734
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 146 of 202 (671494)
08-26-2012 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Big_Al35
08-26-2012 3:10 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution.

The point of the summary at the link you point to is that definitions do matter, and it is a matter of definition as to whether certain examples of evolution should be called macroevolution.

You are doing a great job of demonstrating RAZD's point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2012 3:10 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 147 of 202 (671495)
08-26-2012 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Big_Al35
08-26-2012 3:10 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Hi Al,

This thread is about how science distinguishes between micro and macroevolution. Providing bare links to creationist websites in an attempt to show that macroevolution doesn't happen is a) contrary to the Forum Guidelines (please, no bare links); and b) irrelevant (it's not what this topic is about).

Do you have anything to say about the definition of macroevolution?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2012 3:10 PM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Big_Al35, posted 08-27-2012 7:28 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 148 of 202 (671496)
08-26-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Big_Al35
08-26-2012 3:10 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
BigAl writes:

Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution.

You mean that some random egit from a Christian ministry says this:

Question: Are scientists actually observing macroevolution as it happens in bacteria?

Response: That depends on how "macroevolution" is defined. Scientists have seen bacteria exchange genetic material. They have seen bacteria become antibiotic resistant. They have seen bacteria become bigger from mutations. But have they ever seen bacteria become anything other than bacteria? No. Have they ever seen one type of bacteria, such as E.coli, become some other type of bacteria that is not (in this case) E.coli? No, they haven't. In fact, with over a hundred years of work with E.coli behind us, (at 20 minutes per generation time, that's over 2 1/5 MILLION generations of E.coli minimum that have been witnessed), and despite forcing or encouraging mutations, they still cannot get anything but E.coli. So it's your call. Is that macroevolution? By some evolutionists' standards it qualifies.

Yup, bacteria are still bacteria. Weird that.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2012 3:10 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 202 (671520)
08-26-2012 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Big_Al35
08-26-2012 3:10 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution.

Largely this reflects the ambiguity of what constitutes a "species" - by definition, a "reproductive community" - among asexual organisms. It doesn't have anything to do with whether macroevolution can happen in bacteria. While it's frequently ambiguous whether any two related bacteria are the same species or not, there's no question that there are multiple species of bacteria.

It's a bit like asking when it started raining. There's no ambiguity between clear skies and a torrential downpour, but is it "raining" when you're splashed by a single drop? Most people would say "no." Two drops, probably the same. Fifty drops? Definitely raining. Five drops? Maybe, maybe not. The transition from "not raining" to "raining" is ambiguous even though the beginning and end of the transition is completely obvious; everybody can tell whether or not it's raining. Species in bacteria are the same way - exactly the situation we would expect if species-level macroevolution was underway in bacteria, as we know that it is.


This message is a reply to:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 150 of 202 (671545)
08-27-2012 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Percy
08-26-2012 3:42 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Percy writes:

Do you have anything to say about the definition of macroevolution?

Yes....I will say this: The pursuit of a definition for macroevolution is a waste of my time.

Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 3:42 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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