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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 646 of 908 (817904)
08-21-2017 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by herebedragons
08-21-2017 12:03 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Faith is merely employing her time-honored strategy of insult and provocation when discussion doesn't go her way.
I *do* think your RIL example is worth plugging away at. There were a few bits of it that I thought Faith might find challenging, but none it seems like it should be beyond her.
--Percy

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 Message 635 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 12:03 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 2:05 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 647 of 908 (817905)
08-21-2017 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by Percy
08-21-2017 1:57 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
It isn't a strategy, it's an expression of frustration at being put through an irrelevant intellectual wringer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Percy, posted 08-21-2017 1:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by Percy, posted 08-21-2017 3:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 648 of 908 (817907)
08-21-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
08-21-2017 1:57 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Forget about mutation for now... that doesn't have to be part of the discussion yet.
It doesn't matter whether you are getting a new variety or new species, all I'm talking about is getting a new population that looks different from the parent population and that means losing the characteristics that were in the parent population to get the new ones in the daughter population.
If all you are arguing for is two populations that look different, it is a very trivial point. But we have much more than a collection of populations that "look different." Even if we limit our idea of speciation to "within a kind" there is a lot more going on than populations that "look different." Example: Felidae, the "cat kind"
Selection is what forms new populations...
Selection eliminates alleles in order to bring out the new phenotypes.
Focus on this part for now. Describe, using allele frequencies, how this would play out. Maybe do this for 10 genes or whatever you think necessary to make your point. Describe allele frequencies of the parent population and daughter population.
ABE I watched the sunlight go dim out my window. It's bright again. I guess the eclipse is over.
I don't think so, it is just now happening (2:30 EST) where I live, so you should have a couple more hours before it peaks there.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 1:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 2:34 PM herebedragons has replied
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 2:47 PM herebedragons has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 649 of 908 (817909)
08-21-2017 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by herebedragons
08-21-2017 2:28 PM


eclipse
Don't ask me why but the total eclipse is over here already, it travels west to east for some reason.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 2:28 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 3:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 650 of 908 (817910)
08-21-2017 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by herebedragons
08-21-2017 2:28 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
I don't see any point in following your instructions. To get new phenotypes you have to lose the genetic stuff for other phenotypes. Even PaulK admitted that. The only controversy is whether mutations overcome this effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 2:28 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 3:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 651 of 908 (817912)
08-21-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Faith
08-21-2017 1:57 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Faith writes:
Mutations occur in individuals.
They can only show up here and there in individuals in a population.
Mutations don't just "show up here and there." Mutations occur in all offspring of all populations. It will be very, very rare when that is not the case.
They will be completely different from each other.
Generally, yes, the mutations each offspring experiences will be different from other offspring. (Though some mutations occur repeatedly, for example, the mutation that causes Down syndrome. The extra copy of chromosome 21 occurs by chance. This is, of course, a deleterious mutation.)
If you got a new phenotype in each individual in a population,...
I don't think you want to trivialize the definition of phenotype to the point where each individual in a population is its own phenotype. If a mutated allele produces a slightly different protein that does pretty much, but not exactly, the same thing as the original protein, is that a new phenotype? If a mutation causes a slightly different blood type, is that a new phenotype? If you begin answering, "Yes, that's a new phenotype," too often to these types of questions then pretty soon you'd have to begin considering a population to have just as many phenotypes as individuals.
...so that you have a scattering of different traits through the entire population, that's not a new species, right?
Right, that's not a new species. A single active mutation cannot cause speciation (polyploid speciation, where the entire chromosome set is duplicated, is a rare exception). A single active mutation will not even usually cause new or different traits. It usually takes an accumulation of active mutations over time to cause changes that are observable by anything other than protein analysis.
What has to happen is selection to spread the mutation or mutations.
Reproduction is what spreads mutations.
Selection is what forms new populations, not mutations.
Selection and mutation are simultaneous processes. Selection decides which individuals contribute their genes to the next generation, and virtually all offspring of every generation have mutations.
...since a new species is also a new population that has different characteristics from the parent population it still can only be formed by replacing those former characteristics with the new ones,...
Yes, agreed so far.
...which is a loss of genetic diversity.
Loss of genetic diversity leaves you with a population that only has genes and alleles already present in the parent population. There is nothing to genetically distinguish them.
For it to remain stable at all would also require that there be no gene flow and no new mutations.
That's true, but in the wild species do not remain stable.
Soon as you get new gene flow, new mutations, drift, a new migration you are losing the homogeneity of your population.
I'm glad you included mutations in your list.
Which is fine except that it's not evolution. Evolution requires selection and selection reduces genetic diversity.
Evolution includes both change (mutation) and selection.
ABE I watched the sunlight go dim out my window. It's bright again. I guess the eclipse is over.
We're in the middle of it here.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 1:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 652 of 908 (817913)
08-21-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Faith
08-21-2017 2:47 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
I don't see any point in following your instructions.
The point is... if I do it, it will prove you wrong... and then you will accuse me of not understanding your argument.
If you don't know how to do it... then I don't see how you can be so confident in your conclusions.
Even PaulK admitted that.
The point you are trying to make now and the one PaulK probably "admitted" to is trivial. We have always agreed that selection would reduce genetic diversity; and that new phenotypes come about with selection. That's trivially true. It is how breeding works.
And if that was the entirety of your point, there would be no argument. But it's not, is it?
You claim that this process, of which we trivially agree is true, is how evolution occurs and is how the diversity of species is explained. And that is what we (PaulK included, I'm sure) would disagree on and is the larger point of my argument.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 2:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 3:12 PM herebedragons has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 653 of 908 (817914)
08-21-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by Faith
08-21-2017 2:05 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Faith writes:
It isn't a strategy, it's an expression of frustration...
Maybe you should get a stress ball instead of making other people the target of your frustrations.
...at being put through an irrelevant intellectual wringer.
It was very relevant, as has been explained. An RIL strain has extremely little genetic diversity, far less than a daughter population or a breeder could achieve, and yet no matter how many of them you produce you never get a new species.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 2:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 654 of 908 (817915)
08-21-2017 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by herebedragons
08-21-2017 3:07 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Wrong about what?
I say mutations cannot overcome the fact that you only get a new phenotypic look to a population by loss of the genetic stuff for the other phenotypes which is a loss of genetic diversity which has to be the case whether we're talking about a new variety, breed, race or species. You do not get new species by addition, by gene flow, by mutations, only by selection, substraction, reduction, loss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 3:07 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 3:23 PM Faith has replied
 Message 657 by PaulK, posted 08-21-2017 3:25 PM Faith has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 655 of 908 (817916)
08-21-2017 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by Faith
08-21-2017 2:34 PM


Re: eclipse
Yea, I found an automation of how the eclipse traveled across the country and I didn't realize that's how it went. Hmmm. It only got a little dim here for about 20 minutes, like a hazy day. Hardly noticeable.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 2:34 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by dwise1, posted 08-21-2017 3:26 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 656 of 908 (817917)
08-21-2017 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Faith
08-21-2017 3:12 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Show me the data... or the math...
You show me HOW your process works, not just tell me it does. I could show you how it really works, but that would be "irrelevant and pedantic."
Once I see how the math works I will be able to see where I "misunderstood" your process.
I contend that removal of alleles or "loss of genetic stuff" is insufficient to produce a new species. I went to significant lengths to demonstrate that with my example of how RIL populations are made. They maximize genetic loss and allele fixation, and yet... no speciation. There is something missing in your process.
Show me how it works.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 3:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 3:49 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 657 of 908 (817918)
08-21-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Faith
08-21-2017 3:12 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
quote:
Wrong about what?
You are wrong to think that the inability of species to interbreed is due to a loss of genetic variation. If you don't understand that then you really aren't in a position to accuse anyone else of failing to understand your argument.
quote:
I say mutations cannot overcome the fact that you only get a new phenotypic look to a population by loss of the genetic stuff for the other phenotypes which is a loss of genetic diversity which has to be the case whether we're talking about a new variety, breed, race or species.
Funny how you focus only on the points where there is agreement and completely ignore the disagreements. It's as if you have no confidence at all in the points where we disagree.
quote:
You do not get new species by addition, by gene flow, by mutations, only by selection, substraction, reduction, loss.
Surely - as I have pointed out before - the arrival of additional variations contributes to speciation. Variation is the resource that selection requires, so if it were to run out selection would cease. The fact that it is continually replenished is what allows evolution to continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 3:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 3:31 PM PaulK has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 658 of 908 (817919)
08-21-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by herebedragons
08-21-2017 3:12 PM


Re: eclipse
Back around 1990 I worked for a company that designed and manufactured computerized greenhouse control systems, which included a weather station. For testing purposes, we had many parts of the system set up at our building.
When we had a partial solar eclipse, we went outside and could hardly notice any difference, just a little bit dimmer and maybe a tiny bit cooler. Later that day I ran a graph of the weather station data and the drops in both temperature and light level were dramatic.
Sorry, I don't think that I saved that graph and, if I did, I have no idea where it could be. Maybe as I'm sorting through all my papers next year after I retire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 3:12 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 659 of 908 (817920)
08-21-2017 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by PaulK
08-21-2017 3:25 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Add all you want, that won't get you a new variety or species. You still have to subtract to get that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by PaulK, posted 08-21-2017 3:25 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by PaulK, posted 08-21-2017 3:56 PM Faith has replied
 Message 662 by Percy, posted 08-21-2017 4:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 660 of 908 (817921)
08-21-2017 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 656 by herebedragons
08-21-2017 3:23 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
I'm going to be continuing to watch the videos on population genetics so maybe eventually I can give you some math. But it will be a while.
Meanwhile you've got a clone in your example? How much genetic variability did you have to lose to get that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by herebedragons, posted 08-21-2017 3:23 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by Percy, posted 08-21-2017 4:53 PM Faith has replied

  
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