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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 856 of 893 (818300)
08-26-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 853 by Faith
08-26-2017 10:48 AM


Faith writes:

Sorry if I don't read through insulting posts, they raise my blood pressure and it's not a pleasant feeling.

The insults start with you. People then respond with the truth about your ideas, and you find the truth insulting. If you don't like the truth about your arguments then come up with better arguments. Stop making things up and start finding evidence for your ideas.

Yes I understand, nothing could possibly be true if it isn't in lockstep with evo theory.

But no one is telling you you're wrong because the theory of evolution says so. We're telling you you're wrong because either you've: a) Made something up out of whole cloth, like your 95% functional DNA claim; b) Said something that was unsupported by any evidence, like your claim that what are thought to different species are in many cases the same species and could viably interbreed; c) Said something that was directly contradicted by facts and evidence, like your claim that evolution could come to end through genetic depletion, or that mutations don't play a significant role in evolution.

Definitions must all be in line with evo theory,

Are you daft? You're actually complaining that you can't make up your own definitions?

...you can't have an original thought because evo theory says something else.

Much fiction contains a great deal of originality, but that doesn't make it true.

I understand, that's the rules here. Sorry I don't play by them but I don't.

If you continue making things up then you'll continue being wrong.

I'm still not completely sure there aren't some cases where the cause of inability to interbreed is genetic depletion. It must at times at least be the result of normally occurring genetic differences brought about by microevolution.

Biology is exceptionally complicated and messy, so I don't think anyone would ever say it's impossible for genetic depletion to result in genetic incompatibility, but it must be incredibly rare. How often do breeders report creation of a new species?

YEC isn't the ToE and I have many many objections to different tenets of the ToE. Utter heresy of course, and you can excommunicate me if you like since it's your church as it were, but I don't agree with the classification system,...

Why don't you agree with the classification system?

...I don't agree with the definition of "speciation,"...

You can't redefine words that already have a definition - what is so hard for you to understand about that. If you have something else you think is really happening when we think it's speciation then that's fine, describe it and tell us about it, but you can't call it speciation. That term already has a definition. This shouldn't have to be explained. You're being incredibly obtuse.

...I do think breeding is a good model of what happens in evolution which at the very least requires reducing in genetic diversity due to random selection;...

I assume by breeding that you mean selective breeding. Every time you say this and I explain that evolution includes both selection and mutation, when you return to the subject you just repeat your claim again unchanged and still without any support. Never is there any accompanying evidence or rationale.

Selective breeding is a good example of the power of selection. It isn't a good example of evolution because evolution also includes mutation. Why don't you continue watching those population genetics videos so that you reach the ones on mutation? You'll love the first one on mutation because it starts with an equation that assumes mutations are deleterious. The study of beneficial mutations is more complicated because they're more rare, making it difficult to confirm theory with experimentation.

...I know microevolution occurs normally in a very short period of time, hundreds of years being a pretty long time, I know it only takes new combinations of the original created DNA to bring about new characteristics, and that this requires losing the genetic stuff for other characteristics,...

You're talking about selective breeding again, and there is little disagreement about that.

...and overall I know the ToE is a crock.

What you know is how to express opinions that have no basis in fact.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 10:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 857 of 893 (818301)
08-26-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 855 by Faith
08-26-2017 11:32 AM


Faith writes:

SO many ways there are to state the status quo without bothering to think about the challenges to it.

This is directly contradicted by the many lengthy replies responding to your "challenges". The problem for you is that the quality of your "challenges" is very low. They have little to no evidence, they contradict existing evidence, and they often make little sense. The status quo that you're maintaining is to continue repeating your "challenges" while never addressing any of the criticisms.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 11:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 858 of 893 (818303)
08-26-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Faith
08-26-2017 11:32 AM


Faith writes:

SO many ways there are to state the status quo without bothering to think about the challenges to it.

If you're trying to prove the world wrong, you have to do it with evidence. It's simple really.

ABE: And I'm quite sure that very little if anything I've said is an old idea.

Of course you are. And of course you're wrong about that too.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 11:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13110
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 859 of 893 (818304)
08-26-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 853 by Faith
08-26-2017 10:48 AM


quote:

Sorry if I don't read through insulting posts, they raise my blood pressure and it's not a pleasant feeling

You suggest that people who reject an argument that has repeatedly been refuted have low IQs or dementia Message 840 - yet you loudly object to any criticism that comes your way no matter how deserved.

quote:

Yes I understand, nothing could possibly be true if it isn't in lockstep with evo theory

Which is a complaint that you don't get to invent your own "facts"

quote:

Definitions must all be in line with evo theory,

Which is a complaint that you aren't allowed to confuse the issue by inventing your own personal definitions - and insisting that everyone else use them.

quote:

you can't have an original thought because evo theory says something else.

Which is a pretty much just an insult as well as a lie.

quote:

I understand, that's the rules here. Sorry I don't play by them but I don't.

Which is an admission that you intend to rely on lies and deceit. Glad to see you show some honesty.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 10:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 860 of 893 (818306)
08-26-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Faith
08-26-2017 11:32 AM


Faith writes:

And Percy, if you come back to this post: I'm not reading anything else you post.

Your statements about what you're going to do are as unreliable as everything else you say. The way to carry a discussion is not to make things up, not to ignore evidence, not to ignore people, not to stick your head in the sand. If you don't like the weaknesses in your arguments pointed out then stop making weak arguments.

You've made a career out of taking offense. You've resorted to it so often, threatened to pick up your toys and go home so frequently, nobody pays it any attention any more. Obviously it isn't working for you, obviously it isn't good for you, obviously you need to stop doing this, so why not just stop? It has no place in a scientific discussion anyway.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 11:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2951
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 861 of 893 (818307)
08-26-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 853 by Faith
08-26-2017 10:48 AM


Of course, you will read none of this, because your false theology requires you to keep yourself as ignorant as possible.

Several years ago, I had a Korean BBQ lunch with a friend from church, Gary, who talked to me about his past. For many years, Gary had been a "true Christian", a fundamentalist. Now he describes himself as "a complete atheist and thorough humanist" and finds himself to be far more spiritually fulfilled than when he was a "true Christian". Back when he was a "true Christian", he would constantly see things that contradicted his beliefs and so he would filter them out, turn a blind eye to them. Even if done automatically and subconsciously, filtering out reality is an active endeavor which does require effort and which does take its toll. Finally one day he was so worn out by his continual denial that he applied the Matthew 7:20 test to Christianity. Christianity failed the Matthew 7:20 test. And Gary was then saved from Christianity.

Faith, you are constantly encountering reality which does not agree with your religious beliefs, so you are trying desperately to turn a blind eye to them. And that is not working so well for you, is it?

I had shared with Dredge my attempts to analyze what's going on in creationists' minds (since they refuse to discuss such questions, all we are left with is observation and analysis). Most YECs accept without question the lies that they are taught by their religious leaders. Most YECs only keep amongst themselves and thus are never exposed to the truth about those creationist lies and therefore experience no conflict.

However, some YECs, emboldened by the lies they'd been fed, venture forth far too boldly to do battle with those "evilutionists" on their own turf. That is when those YECs start to encounter reality and start to learn that what the creationists had taught them all those years was nothing but bullshit lies.

How do those YECs react to that? The honest ones eventually come to reject the creationist lies. As I understand, several of the anti-creationism members of this forum used to be YECs before they encountered the truth. Rejecting YEC does not happen immediately nor is it easy, but eventually you get to the point where you can simply no longer continue to accept the creationist lies or to make excuses for them.

But we also see those who ignore the truth and hold fast to their creationist lies. In doing so, they must become dishonest and in order to defend or support those creationist lies they must use dishonest means. And the longer they engage with non-creationists, the more dishonest they have to become.

So if you cannot endure encountering the truth about your creationists beliefs, then venturing out among the normals should be your last option. Instead, you should scurry into the shadows to gather with fellow YECs and engage in a massive circle jerk so that you can all get each other off with creationist lies. Because in such circles the truth can be a really big buzz killer.

Definitions must all be in line with evo theory, ...

This has been a big stumbling block for you for several years. If you are going to discuss some subject with others, then you must use the same vocabulary in order to be understood. If you use an entirely different vocabulary, then nobody will be able to understand you and all that can result is confusion. Well of course, confusion is a creationist's best friend, because the last thing that a creationist would want would be for anyone to understand what he's saying, since what he's saying is contrary-to-fact and intended to deceive his audience.

Here's a possible example. Let's say that you are discussing dogs and what dogs can do. So you decide to redefine "dog" to include penguins and start blathering on about how dogs will dive into the Antarctic waters for extended periods of time to hunt for fish to bring back and regurgitate for the pups to feed on. Oh, and in the meantime the daddy dogs had been balancing the pup eggs on their feet to keep them warm. Pup eggs. And of course everybody else tries to explain to you why your statements are blithering nonsense and you denounce them as {insert any of the various insulting things you have called everybody here} just because they do not accept your redefinition ofr "dog" to include penguins, which by the way you may or may not have ever explicitly stated at any point while at the same time deflecting with contempt anyone's attempts to determine just what the hell you are thinking.

YEC isn't the ToE ...

No, it is not. YEC is a pack of lies, whereas the Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory.

And we know from another post, Message 843, that you have no clue what a theory is. And do please note that you were corrected about what a theory is in Message 847 written several hours before this message that I am replying to.

So since you are so ignorant of the things you pontificate about, why should anyone feel that they should take anything you say seriously? You keep proving that you don't know what you are talking about.

... mutations being an interference and unnecessary, ...

Uh, no. Mutations do indeed happen. They are not inferences, but rather they do happen.

So in addition to having no clue how science works (eg, you have no clue what a theory is), you also have no clue about mutations? Though your ignorance in such matters does not deter you from pontificating about them.

... though I thinki the whole idea of fitness is overrated; ...

Your entire "theory" -- read "half-baked idea" -- is based completely on selection which itself is driven by fitness. So now you are calling that into question as well? For what reason? Oh yeah, that's right, for no reason at all.

So then, is this your admission that you also don't have a clue about selection?

... and overall I know the ToE is a crock.

How? You don't know how it works, you don't know about mutations, you don't know about selection, you don't even know what a theory is. Being so monumentally ignorant of evolution, how could you ever possibly have evaluated it truthfully in order to arrive at such a conclusion.

Sorry, but all the evidence points to the simple fact that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Yet again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 10:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 4:43 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 862 of 893 (818309)
08-26-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by dwise1
08-26-2017 3:30 PM


Of course, you will read none of this, because your false theology requires you to keep yourself as ignorant as possible.

No, I won't read it because of that insulting sentence and some other similar stuff I encountered on a quick skim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2017 3:30 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 863 by jar, posted 08-26-2017 6:16 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 863 of 893 (818313)
08-26-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 862 by Faith
08-26-2017 4:43 PM


Come into the Light Faith, leave the darkness.
Pointing out that you are being willfully ignorant about science, about Christianity, about reality should not be insulting but rather encouraging. You remain ignorant about everything simply by choice. It is your choice that stands between you and reality, nothing more. All it would take is for you to decide to no longer remain ignorant and all your stress, all your angst would disappear.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 4:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 6:43 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 864 of 893 (818314)
08-26-2017 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 863 by jar
08-26-2017 6:16 PM


Re: Come into the Light Faith, leave the darkness.
Calling me ignorant will get you nowhere. I think my YEC views are far superior to everything else said on this thread. I've made the case and I'm not talking to people who insult me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 863 by jar, posted 08-26-2017 6:16 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by Percy, posted 08-26-2017 7:49 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 866 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2017 10:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 865 of 893 (818315)
08-26-2017 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by Faith
08-26-2017 6:43 PM


Re: Come into the Light Faith, leave the darkness.
Faith writes:

Calling me ignorant will get you nowhere.

The term "ignorant" isn't being employed that way. It's an explanation and a fact, not an insult. It's why you're unable to construct rational evidence-based arguments.

Dwise1 said that something that is also instructive, that for you confusion is an ally. The last thing you want is for a clear picture of evolution to emerge. I'd go a little beyond that and say that it's actually chaos that is your friend. As soon as things start to go against you in a thread you begin to sow as much dissension and discord as possible in order to bring constructive discussion to a halt.

Just like in this thread. Congratulations!

So all we can do is counter your tumult and ignorance with accurate information. Natural selection is analogous to selective breeding. Mutation is analogous to cross-breeding. Species does have a definition and kind does not. Most species around the world are not capable of interbreeding to create viable offspring. Given what we know of the genomes of species today and of mutation rates, it is impossible that all species went through a genetic bottleneck 4000 years ago that left them with only two alleles per gene. Speciation (that you claim isn't really speciation) is not caused by genetic defects that prevent a population from interbreeding with other populations of the same species.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 6:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5988
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 866 of 893 (818318)
08-26-2017 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by Faith
08-26-2017 6:43 PM


Re: Come into the Light Faith, leave the darkness.
I think my YEC views are far superior to everything else said on this thread.

We are aware that you think your YEC beliefs are superior, and that scripture is a better source of knowledge than scientific evidence.

But your believing it does not make it so, and at this point the scientific evidence shows that your YEC beliefs are wrong.

But, as my signature says, "Belief gets in the way of learning," so all the evidence we provide goes nowhere.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 6:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 867 of 893 (818319)
08-26-2017 11:02 PM


Sumry uv the weirdness
EvC is obviously some kind of alternative universe. Nothing here makes sense, nobody makes sense, what people say about me would be funny if it weren't so bizarre. In any case I'm no longer discussing anything with people who insult me in such bizarre ways with such a strange lack of understanding of the argument.

Cheers.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2017 1:27 AM Faith has responded
 Message 871 by Percy, posted 08-27-2017 9:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13110
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 868 of 893 (818320)
08-27-2017 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 867 by Faith
08-26-2017 11:02 PM


Re: Sumry uv the weirdness
quote:

EvC is obviously some kind of alternative universe.

It isn't your fantasy world, no matter how much you try to drag us into it.

quote:

Nothing here makes sense, nobody makes sense, what people say about me would be funny if it weren't so bizarre.

You may not like to admit to what you're doing, but nobody here has any duty to be quiet about it.

quote:

In any case I'm no longer discussing anything with people who insult me in such bizarre ways with such a strange lack of understanding of the argument.

In other words you don't want to talk to honest people who dare to disagree with your daft opinions. Even if we did like your opinions better than the truth, honesty would still require us to disagree. And all your lying hardly helps.

But if you can't handle the truth, if you can't cope with people who won't give in to all your lying and bullying by all means run away.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 11:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by Faith, posted 08-27-2017 4:47 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 869 of 893 (818322)
08-27-2017 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 868 by PaulK
08-27-2017 1:27 AM


Re: Sumry uv the weirdness
Amazing. Nothing but snark as usual. Amazing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2017 1:27 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2017 5:05 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13110
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 870 of 893 (818323)
08-27-2017 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 869 by Faith
08-27-2017 4:47 AM


Re: Sumry uv the weirdness"
What's amazing about it ? It's a direct and on-point response, and if you're claiming that I offered no evidence - then neither did you. Not to mention the fact that your assertions were so non-specific that there would some much point gathering evidence in rebuttal.

The fact remains that you are pushing an argument which was successfully rebutted years ago, that you have made no progress in addressing the rebuttals over all that time and you are "amazed" that you aren't believed. And you think that in the "real universe" asserting that your argument is good and pretending that it isn't understood would convince the very people that defeated you ? Really ? How could that possibly work ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by Faith, posted 08-27-2017 4:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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