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Author Topic:   What i can't understand about evolution....
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 86 of 493 (492263)
12-29-2008 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by wardog25
12-29-2008 5:12 PM


Re: Macro-evolution sans fossils!
The examples given of ring species would not fall outside anyone's definition of "kind". If all dogs are the same kind, certainly a weak bacteria and a hardy bacteria are the same kind. Same thing with a salamanders of varying colors or birds with different mating calls (simplified explanation, I know, but I am in a hurry and have no time to quote the article verabatim)
What you seem to be looking for is a an example of biological evolution that you would consider to be beyond explanation by a 'theory of kind'?
To answer this even remotely objectively we first need to know what the limits of 'kind' actually are. Can you define the term 'kind' and the objective biological limits that define one kind from another?
Without this I don't see how anyone can even attempt to answer your question in any way that can be deemed objectively satisfactory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by wardog25, posted 12-29-2008 5:12 PM wardog25 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by wardog25, posted 12-30-2008 1:05 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 99 of 493 (492356)
12-30-2008 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by wardog25
12-30-2008 1:05 PM


Re: Macro-evolution sans fossils!
Anyway, I was told I can't ask for evidence if I don't SPECIFICALLY define my terms. This is interesting to me, because many of the taxonomic ranks are not exact definitions, but are often defined by the animals in them.
The difference here is that 'blurriness' of divisions in groupings is an inevitable and logical result of evolutionary theory while quite the opposite is true of kinds.
Evolutionary biology is based on the idea that all species are derived from a common ancestor by means of gradual changes. Thus distinctions between different closely related groupings are going to be inherently blurry and often even quite arbitrary as there is no sudden transition that seperates one grouping from another.
The concept of 'kinds' however should logically result in very distinct and definite seperation being possible.
No?
Sounds either like a double standard or an excuse to avoid trying to produce evidence that was asked for. (I mean, if you have evidence for macro-evolution beyond "family", just give it rather than argue about where exactly a "kind" is defined)
The fact is that you have already quite evidently made up your mind regardless of evidence.......
However........
I suspect that there are others here capable of more technical answers in the field of genetics than I so I will restrict myself to a relatively simple (in fact intentionally simplistic) example that relies on one of the wider principles of the scientific method. Namely testable prediction.
A theory of evolution and common ancestry based on natural selection, genetic inheritence and random genetic mutation intrinsically predicts that more closely related species will have more in common genetically than those that branched off at an earlier stage. Thus very specific predictions regarding the relationships between different species can be made and verified or refuted by means of genetic research. Thus our theory is testable and verifiable.
For example: Based on embryology, vestigial limbs and the fossil record we would predict that a whale would be more genetically similar to a cow than it would be to a walrus despite many superficial morphological similarities between the walrus and the whale.
What would a theory of 'kinds' predict regarding the genetic differences between whales, walruses and cows? On what basis would it make these predictions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by wardog25, posted 12-30-2008 1:05 PM wardog25 has not replied

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