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Author Topic:   What mutations are needed for a particular trait (e.g. wings) to arise?
ringo
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Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 91 of 111 (347396)
09-07-2006 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Someone who cares
09-07-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Someone who cares writes:

First of all, is it mathematically possible for wings to arrive from random mutations? NO!

You know how it works in math class: show your work or you get ZERO.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16015
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 92 of 111 (347398)
09-07-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by skepticfaith
09-06-2006 2:33 PM


Ok -- I am not the expert here.. Just convince me here.. What mutations have been observed that have resulted in physical changes for higher order animals (mammals, birds etc). Nothing drastic, just something that implies or suggests further evolutionary change.

How about this? (Note how real scientists use the word "microevolution": to refer to the scale of time over which the evolution happens.)

Now perhaps I have missed the point of your question, and you mean to ask who observed the original mutations, when they happened --- the actual original chromosomal errors. In that case, no-one, 'cos no-one was looking. No-one notices a tiny change in the genotype or phenotype from parent to child (the phenotype aspect of this being concealed by sexual recombination). What we are able to see, then, is the effect of the cumulative action of natural selection on small changes which we simply aren't in a position to notice.

I hope this helps.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by skepticfaith, posted 09-06-2006 2:33 PM skepticfaith has not yet responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3529 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 93 of 111 (347403)
09-07-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
09-07-2006 10:09 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
You know what, for the past 4,000 years or so, we have not observed mutations making wings. And, genetics won't permit it. Show me how it can! Go on. Show me how random, 99.9% harmful mutations can make a wing on a non winged creature over time. I challenge you!

P.S. You know how it works in science, show your proof or change your theory. I have yet to see proof for macroevolution, proof that is directly related to macroevolution. If you have some, I'll be glad to see it, because I've been waiting for quite some time... Getting a bit boring... (maybe a different topic for this would be good)


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 10:57 PM Someone who cares has responded
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-07-2006 11:05 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 94 of 111 (347411)
09-07-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Someone who cares
09-07-2006 10:35 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Someone who cares writes:

And, genetics won't permit it. Show me how it can!

No no no no. You made the claim that it is "mathematically impossible for wings to arrive from random mutations". Show us the math and then we'll discuss it.

I have yet to see proof for macroevolution, proof that is directly related to macroevolution.

Science isn't about "proof".

So far, you're still batting zero.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 10:35 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 11:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16015
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 95 of 111 (347413)
09-07-2006 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by skepticfaith
09-07-2006 9:24 PM


Oh dear, that article on horse evolution.

Now, the point at which warning bells should have gone off in your head was this:

Think about what you just read about the toes on each horse. The more modern horse has no more toes; it has a hoof. I thought in evolution you gained faculties not loose them. I guess then in evolution you have to loose something to gain something?

The man who wrote that extraordinary passage draws it to our attention in bold red type. It is at this point, O ye of skepticfaith, that you should have realized that you were reading a website about evolution written by a man who doesn't know what the theory of evolution is --- and gone and found a better website.

Let's look at a bit more of his bold red ink.

He quotes poor George Gaylord Simpson, who never did him any harm, as saying: "The uniform continuous transformation of the hyracotherium (Eohippus) into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature." And so he did.

But then our amazing creationist declares:

In other words what he is really saying, the evolution of the horse did not happen at all!

Now of course this is not what he's saying in other words. This is obvious for two reasons.

First, from reading the passage, where the emphasis is on "uniform continuous".

And second ...

Well, this is the bit where you should have realized that the author of this website has COMPLETELY LOST HIS FREAKING MARBLES ...

He says that Simpson says that the horse didn't evolve.

AND he says that Simpson is one of the "top evolutionists in the world".

IS HE MENTAL?

Excuse me, but these statements can't both be true. I just stare from one to the other and think "how the heck did he write that?"

A brief point about the question of ribs: rib number is quite variable even in within species. Humans are mildly variable: 12 pairs is typical, but 11 and 13 are not freakishly uncommon --- I've had a quick look for exact figures, but I can't find any right now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by skepticfaith, posted 09-07-2006 9:24 PM skepticfaith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16015
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 96 of 111 (347420)
09-07-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Someone who cares
09-07-2006 10:35 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
You know what, for the past 4,000 years or so, we have not observed mutations making wings. And, genetics won't permit it.

Of course the laws of genetics do not permit us to observe this in 4000 years. Hence, since the theory of evolution consists of the laws of genetics and the law of natural selection, the theory of evolution does not predict that we will observe this over 4000 years. Hence a failure to make such an observation does not tend to falsify the theory of evolution.

Did you see what I just did there? It's called "the scientific method".

Show me how it can! Go on. Show me how random, 99.9% harmful mutations can make a wing on a non winged creature over time. I challenge you!

By natural selection culling out the harmful ones, but favoring those which would be beneficial to a creature which, through its habits of life, has need to be aerodynamic.

Ask me something difficult.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 10:35 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 11:31 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3529 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 97 of 111 (347431)
09-07-2006 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-07-2006 10:57 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
How can I show you that it can't happen? You should see that in nature all around you, no mutations have made wings evolve.

Genetics won't permit. Why? During sexual reproduction, genetic information from the parents fuses together and makes the genetic code for the offspring. During this process, the offspring has code set for certain traits and features, which happens by combining the possible choices, and the outcome that is dominant will appear in the offspring. Mutations that happen in the gametes pass on to offspring, these are the only mutations that pass on to the offspring. If mutations do affect the genetic code of the gametes, it will show in the offspring, usually as a defect. These mutations are 99.9% harmful, meaning they destroy, mix up, disorganize, etc. Wings cannot come about by this destructive, random process. To make wings in a creature that doesn't already have them, or the code for them, an increase in new genetic information would be required, mutations do not do this, they only alter PREVIOUSLY existing code. So there, this is why it's NOT AT ALL possible for wings, or evolving wings, to come about by random mutations. A creature will not receive genetic information for wings or info to start evolving them from mutations, because mutations are not capable of doing this, they just can't do it!

quote:
Science isn't about "proof".

Scientific hypotheses are supposed to be supported by evidence in order to be considered theories, evolution has yet to bring forth this evidence, thus it should remain at the hypothesis level, and a false one at that...


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:27 PM Someone who cares has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 98 of 111 (347435)
09-07-2006 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Someone who cares
09-07-2006 11:18 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Somebody who cares writes:

You should see that in nature all around you, no mutations have made wings evolve.

That ain't mathematics. You said it was mathematically impossible. Either show your calculations or admit that all you have is empty rhetoric.

These mutations are 99.9% harmful, meaning they destroy, mix up, disorganize, etc. Wings cannot come about by this destructive, random process.

What about the remaining 0.1% ?

I don't work for 99.9% of the companies in the world. Does that mean I don't work at all?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 11:18 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 11:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3529 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 99 of 111 (347438)
09-07-2006 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dr Adequate
09-07-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
quote:
Of course the laws of genetics do not permit us to observe this in 4000 years. Hence, since the theory of evolution consists of the laws of genetics and the law of natural selection, the theory of evolution does not predict that we will observe this over 4000 years. Hence a failure to make such an observation does not tend to falsify the theory of evolution.

Did you see what I just did there? It's called "the scientific method".


Please! Don't tell me that we wouldn't expect to see at least SOME evolution in 4,000 years! I mean, reason with me, if throughout all of mankind no macroevolution has been observed at any stage, then what's the chance it happened over some millions of year? NONE!

That's just ridiculous: Evolutionist, "Folks, we haven't seen evolution throughout our entire existence, but um, trust me on this one, it did happen, when no one was there to see it. Just trust me."

But the laws of genetics and activities of mutations don't allow for evolution to happen AT ALL! Not even in 4 billion years! Explanation in above post.

quote:
By natural selection culling out the harmful ones, but favoring those which would be beneficial to a creature which, through its habits of life, has need to be aerodynamic.

Woah! Stop right there. What was that! Tell me, in what part of that did the reptile aquire the neccessary info to start evolving wings! Remember, the reptile doesn't have genetic code for wings or evolving them, so a filter (natural selection) would be of no use! Reason with me, since when did air filters start adding nitrogen or something to our air? What you would need is not a filter, nor errors, nor isolation, you would need GENETIC CODE INFORMATION INCREASES, but there is NO process to describe how this is even possible!

quote:
Ask me something difficult.

We can't move on to algebra if we don't even have our addition and multiplication learned. Sorry, I can't ask you something more difficult until you give me a plausible explanation for my simple questions. First simple, then difficult.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-07-2006 11:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3529 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 100 of 111 (347441)
09-07-2006 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
09-07-2006 11:27 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
quote:
That ain't mathematics. You said it was mathematically impossible. Either show your calculations or admit that all you have is empty rhetoric.

99.9% sounds like a good enough mathematical impossibility. AND, mutations can't add genetic information, so it's even more impossible than that! The mutations are working in the opposite direction of what evolution would require! Evolution requires gain, mutations give loss! There's your mathematical impossibility!

quote:
What about the remaining 0.1% ?

I don't work for 99.9% of the companies in the world. Does that mean I don't work at all?


You know what I think personally? I think they only left that 0.1% or less to give evolutionists at least some little hope to cling to... I have never seen a beneficial mutation, meaning, a mutation that adds good genetic information to a creature or something to the sort, so I think that 100% of mutations are harmful in nature. But, you have the chance to show me elsewise, have any beneficial mutation examples somewhere? (Hint: Not beneficial EFFECT, and actual beneficial mutation by nature.)


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:49 PM Someone who cares has responded
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 Message 111 by Codegate, posted 09-08-2006 2:38 PM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 101 of 111 (347444)
09-07-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Someone who cares
09-07-2006 11:38 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Someone who cares writes:

99.9% sounds like a good enough mathematical impossibility.

:laugh: So you admit you don't know anything about mathematics.

You know what I think personally? I think they only left that 0.1% or less....

I don't care what you think personally.

Answer the question: If I don't work for 99.999% of the companies in the world, does that make it impossible for me to work for one of the other 0.001% ?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 11:38 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 12:32 AM ringo has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1376 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 102 of 111 (347458)
09-08-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by skepticfaith
09-07-2006 9:24 PM


mutation links
skepticfaith writes:

Are there not any observed mutations at all ?

It's disconcerting to be asked this when, just a few posts ago, I described one.

Just give me the links to them whatever they are.

Mutations Documented & Discussed

Evolution of antibiotic-resistance in bacteria
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/survival/enemy/

Evolution of 'conquistador' algae in the Mediterranean
http://tinyurl.com/fymwl

Evolution of nylonase from frameshift mutation
http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm
(Graphics are awful, but see the text)

Evolution of CCR5 sickle-cell mutation in resistance to malaria
http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_4.htm

Evolution of enhanced muscular development from myostatin mutation
http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/bravenewworld.html

More examples (HIV resistance, lactose tolerance, etc.)
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html

If you want more specialized information, I recommend contacting EvC member Wounded King to begin.
___

Background & Context

How Mutations Occur
http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_3.htm

How Natural Selection Operates
http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_4.htm

Today's Synthetic Evolutionary Model: Darwin + Mendel
http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_9.htm

EvoTutor: Modes of Natural Selection
http://www.evotutor.org/Selection/Sl5A.html

Theodosius Dobzhansky. 'Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.' The American Biology Teacher, March 1973
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/10/2/l_102_01.html


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by skepticfaith, posted 09-07-2006 9:24 PM skepticfaith has not yet responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3529 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 103 of 111 (347460)
09-08-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
09-07-2006 11:49 PM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Evolution, macroevolution, is impossible. PROVE ME WRONG. PROVE that a wing forming from random mutations can be mathematically possible. Go on.

quote:
I don't care what you think personally.

Answer the question: If I don't work for 99.999% of the companies in the world, does that make it impossible for me to work for one of the other 0.001% ?


Evolution is a religion. So if you don't care about what I have to say, I shouldn't care about what you say either, we both believe in religions and we both can't prove what we believe by going back in time or something. Because most everything is based on presuppositions. But my presuppostions are from the Bible, and the Bible and science go hand in hand, as you can see for yourself here: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml That's why you can trust the Bible on the scientific accuracy of things, like Creation. But now, show me what your presuppositions of evolution are based on, go on now.

As for the question, you know the answer yourself. What I'm saying is that I believe it's 100% harmful mutations. And unless you can prove me wrong, that's how it's going to be for me. You can rely on your 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% for a beneficial mutation for your theory and for you life and stakes at eternity. Or, you can rely on God and His Word... You choose. It's up to you. Pick the right thing before it's too late, I don't want to see you or anyone else in hell for eternity. That's why I want you to recognize the truth, that evolution is a lie, that there is a God, and that you will have to give account one day... I hope to see you in Heaven, really, I do.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1376 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 104 of 111 (347461)
09-08-2006 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Someone who cares
09-07-2006 11:31 PM


bird evolution
Tell me, in what part of that did the reptile aquire the neccessary info to start evolving wings!

Dear Someone who cares:

Please care enough to read the posts in this thread that address bird evolution before attempting to debate it. The questions you raise, and more, have been discussed with links to science sites provided.

Right now it is clear you lack the most basic knowledge of the views you hope to refute.

Welcome to EvC.

.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Title.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Someone who cares, posted 09-07-2006 11:31 PM Someone who cares has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 105 of 111 (347462)
09-08-2006 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 12:32 AM


Re: Is it possible mathematically?
Someone who cares writes:

What I'm saying is that I believe it's 100% harmful mutations. And unless you can prove me wrong, that's how it's going to be for me.

Your beliefs don't count one single solitary iota here. This is a science forum.

You have tacitly admitted that you can't answer a simple mathematical question, so please stop wasting our time with your beliefs.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
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