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Author Topic:   Evolution Disproven.
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 60 (11162)
06-07-2002 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RvX
06-07-2002 1:19 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by RvX:
[B]Ok, I'm really disgusted, I can't believe what the world has come to...[/QUOTE]
When you are finished being disgusted, how about addressing some of the points we have made?
quote:
*No offense to anyone, just the truth*
It's mainly filled with a bunch of ignorant, insulting evolutionists who haven't even thought of how impossible evolution is and just continue to slag any newcomers... pssh, how nice of you...
It's not our fault that you don't know anything about Biology, yet feel perfectly comfortable criticizing it.
Your ignorance is outpaced only by your arrogance.
quote:
There's too many things to quote and reply to here,
Well, we replied to all of what you wrote.
Why don't you pick 3 things and respond to them. I'll wait.
quote:
and it's not going to get anywhere, because you evolutionists will just continue to deny and deny the truth... you have been brainwashed too much to realize the truth.
That's a nice way to run away from the discuission before it's even begun.
Chicken!!! Bock Bock!!!!
quote:
I have already provided the proof for you... evolution has been disproven...
LOL!!!
No, you haven't. All you have done is assert that evolution has been disproven. You have cited no science, no field reports, no peer-review journal articles. Not even so much as a NY Times editorial!
quote:
I care nothing of what your opinion of me is... you can call me a "little-leaguer" all you want, because I'm a new poster here or whatever...
It's not because you are new here. It's because you have such a uninformed, cartoonish view of Biology that you actually seem to believe. We have heard every one of your "Arguments from Incredulity" many times over, and the fact that you present them simply shows your lack of any real science education.
To be uninformed is not reprehensible, but it is terribly shameful to claim something out of willful ignorance rather than from knowledge.
If you are truly interested in learning something about science, then read the websites I listed for you. If you are not interested or too frightened to learn about real science, then just realize you are choosing to remain ignorant.
quote:
and I don't really care... what matters is if you understand true science or not.
Tell us, how much science education do you have? Are you even out of high school yet? Many of us here have science degrees from university, and a couple of us are practicing academic scientists.
quote:
Evolution is NOT science.
Please explain to us what you think "real" science is, and perhaps we can discuss why you believe the ToE doesn't apply. (Not that I think it is likely that you will stick around to answer this question, or any other)
quote:
Did you observe evolution
YES! Didn't you read my reply?? Evolution has been observed!!
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
"Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved."
quote:
or the Big Bang happen?
The ToE has nothing to do with the Big Bang. The ToE deals with life once it got here.
If you go to bed with no snow on the ground, and wake up the next morning with snow on the ground, do you simply deny that the snow exists because you didn't see any snow falling??
Science makes inferences all the time, just like you do.
quote:
Is it recreatable? NO!
We can create evolution in the lab, so you are completely wrong.
quote:
Thats all I need to know... it's not science, it's just a bunch of lies compiled together.
You are behaving belligenrently and you are heading towards getting a time out. Simply repeating assertions and ignoring responses from others does not fly here.
quote:
Tell me... if "apes evolved to humans", why are there apes still left?
Apes didn't evolve to humans, and if you would READ SOME BASIC BIOLOGY, you would learn that utterly basic fact of Evolution.
Apes and humans share a common ape-like ancestor.
quote:
Really... this is pretty sick... I just cannot believe what the world has come to... rejecting God and developing a bunch of lies to explain how the world was created.
Who said anything about rejecting God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RvX, posted 06-07-2002 1:19 AM RvX has not replied

  
Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 60 (11168)
06-08-2002 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
06-07-2002 12:18 PM


"Actually I would have recommended
http://switch.to/evolution
it actually has links to both."
I DID suggest that he read critic material, but you are right- this site would be a good one for a beginner like RvX.
"By the way Cobra, if you have time please read my earlier post to RxV. It contains some info concerning 2LOT and evolution that you may find interesting."
I did, and I also read your other post a while back before my extended period of a lack of posting or visiting the site. I feel that you have made a good case that the ToE and 2LOT can harmonize, so I will concede that you are either right or I am not knowleadgable enough to argue further.
TO RVX:
One of the problems with the Creationist community is that many of them are not knowleadgable of the arguments and counter-arguments of the different sides of the debate. I am obviously no genious, but I think I have a bit of basic knowledge of the different positions held. However, a large portion of the Creationist public are people who know little, yet are extremely cocky. Ignorance and arrogance tend to be an annoying combo, and it also makes it easy for people to criticize the creation community. I seriously recommend you read some better material at the links I provided you, as well as some critic material.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 06-07-2002 12:18 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 60 (11169)
06-08-2002 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by RvX
06-07-2002 7:47 PM


"Ok guys just answer something for me...
Why do you hate Kent Hovind so much?"
--Hate is such a strong word. I would rather say it is 'sad', he may be described as a little selfish helpless puppy dog. Everyone loves him because all they see is his 'charm' and his eloquent style of debate and tactics. To someone who has not taken the fields of science seriously you would be to say that that guy is brilliant (I could name numerous examples I personally know). Either he is deceiving himself by his own ignorance and arrogance, or he is deliberately deceiving all of his ilk. As you have seen through all of our posts in response to this Hovind-parroting, his arguments are nothing short of straw-men, unfounded, ludicrous, un-scientific hog-wash. While you do not respond, you have at least been reading our responses I surely hope. And taking a bit of time and reading the links supplied to you will also be of much assistance. As I said before he himself admits that he received his degree from an un-accredited university (labeled as a degree-mill). If I had the time, I would draw him in a paleontology classroom with his face flat on his desk with a bunch of Z's floating from his head, because he obviously either never paid attention or was never even involved with such a class for scientific study. You have seen time and time again through these numerous posts that his arguments are just this, and you may wonder why so many Evo's in the EvC debate get so anti-Creationist and hostile rather than discussing the science, because of people like Hovind. Luckily, we regularly have intelligible scientific discussion from both sides here. Stick around and respond to posts, exchange ideas, acknowledge your mistakes and the mistakes of others material you may iterate and you may do fine. Until then, your posts will be filled with ignorant biased rhetoric, basically unworthy of commentation. You should feel lucky that we attempt to correct you in the hopes that you will understand or read them with an open mind. Just a couple more of my pennies
"Stop attacking him for what college he went to (ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?"
--See above, his arguments are unfounded and un-scientific. Believe me, if you do have any interest in science then discuss the science and read the mainstream material with an open mind in knowing the fact that the data has been interpreted. If you wish not to do this, science is not the field for you, nor is this forum, as well as you should be silent unless you wish to degrade the stance of the conventional YEC any further than many see it because of this type of iteration which is not suitable to be discussed as science.
--If I may introduce to you a reliable phrase which I conjured up some time ago after I started using that brain which I believe that God has given me, you may want to see its merit and take it into consideration:
"Unbiased scientific inquiry is the basis of true knowledge and understanding. In deposition of my vernality, I should not be underestimated."
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-07-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 49 of 60 (11171)
06-08-2002 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by TrueCreation
06-08-2002 12:50 AM


So it seems, that the evo side can now pass off the newby YEC's to TC and CS (was KP involved also?), and let them handle the situation.
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe
[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 06-08-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by nator, posted 06-08-2002 7:35 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 50 of 60 (11178)
06-08-2002 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Minnemooseus
06-08-2002 1:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by minnemooseus:
So it seems, that the evo side can now pass off the newby YEC's to TC and CS (was KP involved also?), and let them handle the situation.
Moose

I am duly impressed, to be sure!
However, I am fearful that all someone like our newbie will do is accuse TC and KP of heresy or something and storm off.
that's the thing with extreme, radical religious people. They have a very difficult time seeing other people's viewpoint, even if it is only as an exercise to understand the other person's argument. It requires analytic thought and logic, which doesn't seem to be in large supply among young fundy-type religious people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-08-2002 1:29 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 51 of 60 (11185)
06-08-2002 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by RvX
06-07-2002 7:47 PM


[QUOTE][b]Stop attacking him for what college he went to[/QUOTE]
[/b]
We're not attacking the college he went to, because (1) we don't consider Patriot U. a college and (2) he didn't actually "go" there in the college sense, he got his "Ph.D." in the mail.
He did attend an accredited Bible college earlier in his academic career but that is not what we are attacking.
[QUOTE][b](ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?[/QUOTE]
[/b]
He's a liar who lacks a basic knowledge of science. One of my favorite Hovind quotes is from his "dissertation", "We don't know how many stars there are in the Solar System...."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by RvX, posted 06-07-2002 7:47 PM RvX has not replied

Replies to this message:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 60 (11186)
06-08-2002 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by gene90
06-08-2002 3:15 PM


"One of my favorite Hovind quotes is from his "dissertation", "We don't know how many stars there are in the Solar System...." "
--ROFLMAO!!!
--We may have to take a gander at his elementary and Jr. High level credibility as well. Tisk, tisk, tisk..
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-08-2002]
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-08-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 53 of 60 (11208)
06-09-2002 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by RvX
06-07-2002 7:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RvX:
Ok guys just answer something for me...
Why do you hate Kent Hovind so much?
Stop attacking him for what college he went to (ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?

I hold people such as Hovind and Gary Bauer more in contempt. They are dishonerable little liars who claim credentials that they did not earn and misstate others opinions and flat out lie (some of the footprints in some Bauers exhbits appear to have been made from casts). The only skill which Hovind posseses is that of misdirectional debate. Debunking the lies and garbage spread by people such as this is, well Shakespeare said it best in a line from Henry to the King of France.
"This is my mission, my charge and my message."
Quote borrowed from Henry the Fifth.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 60 (11289)
06-11-2002 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by RvX
06-07-2002 7:47 PM


Done already RvX? Your only deluding yourself if your going around all the chartrooms and forums you can until you get a favor on your arguments.
--[Added by edit]This may be one of them scenarios in which there is a need for a creationist only forum section, a bit of unbrain-washing is sometimes needed.
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by compmage, posted 06-11-2002 7:26 AM TrueCreation has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 55 of 60 (11298)
06-11-2002 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by TrueCreation
06-11-2002 3:54 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:

--[Added by edit]This may be one of them scenarios in which there is a need for a creationist only forum section, a bit of unbrain-washing is sometimes needed.

Agreed. It is far easier to convince a person to change their views from point A to point B, than from point A to point Z.
Who knows, maybe one day everyone will see the light and become evolutionists if only we try baby steps
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 56 of 60 (11300)
06-11-2002 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by compmage
06-11-2002 7:26 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by compmage:
Who knows, maybe one day everyone will see the light and become evolutionists if only we try baby steps
[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh Man! that is no fun. Wouldn't you rather do an experiment that takes you from A to Z, from Alpha to Omega in one giant leap
.
Actually having done more than a few of those while the return can be great the odds of success are very, very small.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

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derwood
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 57 of 60 (11307)
06-11-2002 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by RvX
06-07-2002 1:19 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RvX:
Tell me... if "apes evolved to humans", why are there apes still left?
Well, looks like I am a bit behind in this.... discussion.... But the above sentiment pretty much completely describes the level of knowledge this chap has on the subject...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RvX, posted 06-07-2002 1:19 AM RvX has not replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 58 of 60 (11308)
06-11-2002 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by RvX
06-07-2002 7:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by RvX:
Ok guys just answer something for me...
Why do you hate Kent Hovind so much?
Stop attacking him for what college he went to (ad hominem)... just tell me, what's wrong with him?

I don't hate him, I feel sorry for him. He is a LIAR - that or monumentally incompetent. I saw him 'debate' Bill Moore at Wayne State University about 5 years ago. Hovind had sent Moore a copy of one of his taped 'debates' so that Moore would 'know what he was up against.' In the taped debate, Hovind used his infamous 'moon rocks' schtick, and Moore went to WSU's library, found all of the relevant articles that Hovind claimed to have used, and, during their debate, demonstrated that Hovind had basically made the whole thing up.
Hovind's response? Did he try to defend himself? Of course not. He says "So you're calling me a liar? well, I KNOW the truth!", lofting his bible into the air, much to the delight of the largely bussed-in crowd (there were church busses in the parking lot from as far away as Toledo!).
He didn't even try to defend his claims.
Liar.
That or monumewntally incompetent.
Thats why I feel sorry for him. He is so deluded that he cannot even see that he is a charlatan.
And what is worse - those who think he knows what he is talking about are even more in the dark.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by RvX, posted 06-07-2002 7:47 PM RvX has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 59 of 60 (11319)
06-11-2002 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by RvX
06-06-2002 10:48 PM


I'll give this a go ...
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:
K... this really is laughable, it's just so funny to see how you guys actually believe this lie (evolution)
1. I made a big mistake by saying "living organism." What I meant to say is, "No species can become superior to itself."
Ex: A dog can't make or become a human... etc, you get the point...

What makes you sure that a human is superior to a dog ?
I mean, most humans work their butts off for the majority of
their life, and don't get to spend more than a few days a
year relaxing ... whereas most dog's spend their entire life
sleeping, eating, playing, and (if they are lucky) making
little dogs.
Flippancy aside though ... evolution is not about progression
or superiority. It's about adapting to a changing emvironment,
and we CAN observe this in the small. More dark peppered moths than
light when the trees were covered in coal, speciation of
finches in the Gallapogos islands, comparitive anatomy of the
ear oscicles across fish-amphibian-reptile-mammal, etc.
It might not convince you of macro-evolution, but then there are
the more recent genetic studies to watch.
Will you at least concede that speciation can happen (most YEC's
don't refute that ... and that's a start).
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

2. Do you really think that an extremely small dot of nothing exploded and created all this intelligence, this whole universe? I mean, think about it!

That's not evolution. Maybe God DID speak the universe into
existence ... the question here is about the origin of DIVERSITY
of life on Earth. Confine yourself to that line of thought
before going further back in time.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

3. There is nothing wrong with Kent Hovind... fake PHD? Gimme a break.. just cause he's smart doesn't mean you evolutionists can insult him...

I don't know much about Kent Hovind ... what is his PhD in and
where did he earn it ?
Perhaps you could find that out and let me know.
I don't insult anyone (or at least I try not to, but when someone
pulls out on me when I'm on my motorbike I might let that one
slide a little
)
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

4. Evolution is a hypothesis, NOT the theory they claim it to be.

I believe evolution IS a theory. A hypothesis (someone correct
me if I'm wrong) is an idea based upon first observation of a
phenomen. E.g. Darwin saw the finches and tortoises on the
Gallapogus islands (or was it iguanas ?) and thought, hmm...
seems to me that there must be some kind of natural selection
going on here. He then thought about what that would mean,
and what other evidence he should expect to find.
Others, likewise made predictions and sought to refute them.
In time, and under peer review, evidence in favour grew, and
a Theory of Evolution was proposed.
Like any other theory it is open to refutation.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

5. An evolutionist (I believe his last name was Haecker or something) made a big book about evolution, years ago... he was showing the similarities of different species by their embryos... it turns out he actually faked the pics of the embryos... he finally figured out how idiotic evolution is.

Unsrupulous people on both sides of the debate will present mis-leading or false evidence to support their position.
Don't tar everyone with the same bruch ... Jesus didn't.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

6. Do you really believe that we came from something so small and dumb to something so big and intelligent? I mean, come on guys, you have brains, think about it... evolution CAN NOT be true, and is not true.

First, just because it is difficult to beleive doesn't mean it isn't
true.
People once found it difficult to beleive that the earth wasn't flat,
but that turned out to be true.
Second, we don't understand intelligence, nor what makes intelligence
happen in an organism ... so we can make no comment on the
feasibility of our 'intelligence' evolving from less
intelligent sources.
Some slime mould exhibit a primitive intelligence ... if I can dig
out the article I will ... in terms of navigating a maze to find
food. Contentious maybe ... but it illustrates that we cannot
fully comment on phenomena we do not fully understand yet.
We can only create and test hypotheses and theories.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

7. Charles Darwin admitted this about his evolution hypothesis... I read about it in some book, can't remember its name...

You really need to back that up.
BUT it may have been a political move to restore his position
in society. He WAS under an enormous pressure to recant.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

8. If you get the Philadelphia Trumpet, read their article of the EVOLUTION OF FRAUD... it just came out.

Sorry ... live in the UK. Perhaps you could summarise it for us.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

9. There is evidence of a huge catastrophe (the Flood).. for example, there are fish in places where water has never flowed... there is real evidence of this.

There are numerous flood events recorded in the geologic record,
but none on the global scale as recorded in Genesis, and certainly
not at the time assumed by a literal interpretation of the Bible
(whether that be 2500 or 3500 BCE).
There are also numerous flood stories from many cultures, many
of which share elements of the Great Flood, and some (the sumerian
account and that in the Hinud Veda's) which pre-date the Bible.
That's pre-date within the same context as the dating of the bible
itself i.e. by archeologists and other scholars.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

10. How dare you compare God with earthly things? Duh, thats why he's called God... of course he can create anything from nothing... thus the name God!

Faith and belief can be wonderful things, but even Jesus argued
against dogmatically following the religion handed us by the
preists ... and the jewish priests had him nailed to a cross
for it.
Argue your position from evidence, don't descend into outrage ...
Jesus taught tolerance after all.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

Evolution = Trash.

You are welcome to any opinion you wish ... but in a debate you
must support your claims.
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

FINALLY: it is a huge mistake to even call evolution science. It is neither observable or reproducabe (or recreatable, whatever
)

I'm not sure that anyone has directly observed an electron ...
is partical physics science or not ?
Evolution IS observable ... the theory stems from empirical evidence
that can be interpreted as evolution.
We reproduce micro-evolution all the time (selective breeding),
and some genetic experiments (mentioned elsewhere) have indicated
that a change in a single protein can inhibit leg development
in shrimp (I think). Given a little more time and effort we
MIGHT be able to reproduce evolutionary effects.
But, would that then fall foul of an 'AH but there was intelligence
behind that experiment' argument ?
quote:
Originally posted by RvX:

Thanks.

Your welcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by RvX, posted 06-06-2002 10:48 PM RvX has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 60 of 60 (13305)
07-10-2002 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by TrueCreation
06-06-2002 12:36 AM


I challenge you too, truecreation. We shall see how long evolution theory stands. In contrast to what is propagated by the evolutionists' "meme", the theory is not supported by molecular biology, and it violates the laws of physics, and the laws of chemistry (I challenge you also on this level). For every socalled proof you provide I will provide you with at least one falsification (on every level of evolution theory).
Peter

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