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Author Topic:   update: freedom found, natural selection theory pushed aside
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3514 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 136 of 224 (480099)
08-31-2008 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Blue Jay
08-31-2008 8:04 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
I dont particularly know what decisions, i assume a toothbrush degrades of its own accord, and can do so in alternative ways. Ive seen the trajectory of light being decided, and Ive seen the theory about molecules shaking about, so i have no problem believing that a toothbrush decides because actually a toothbrush is animate of its own accord in sime aspects.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2008 8:04 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2008 9:11 PM Syamsu has responded

  
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 137 of 224 (480102)
08-31-2008 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Syamsu
08-31-2008 8:06 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
syamsu writes:

we should simply accept the principle and proceed

So you agree that your version of freedom and anticipatory theory is nonscientific nonsense?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Syamsu, posted 08-31-2008 8:06 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Syamsu, posted 08-31-2008 8:29 PM dokukaeru has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 875 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 138 of 224 (480103)
08-31-2008 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Syamsu
08-31-2008 7:13 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
Syamsu writes,

Yes I do believe toothbrushes make decisions, that they anticipate their future.

They must have AMAZING weed in Amsterdam if toothbrushes can make decisions for themselves and anticipate things...especially something that doesn't exist like the future. Wow send some to Miami, Fl :D


"All great truths begin as blasphemies"

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Syamsu, posted 08-31-2008 7:13 PM Syamsu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by dokukaeru, posted 08-31-2008 8:21 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 139 of 224 (480106)
08-31-2008 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by onifre
08-31-2008 8:15 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
onifre writes:

They must have AMAZING weed in Amsterdam

I have been thinking this the entire thread. Some of Syamsu's responses seem like hasish induced delirium.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by onifre, posted 08-31-2008 8:15 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3514 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 140 of 224 (480107)
08-31-2008 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by dokukaeru
08-31-2008 8:14 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
I think Dubois anticipation theory is going to make it in science, thats kind of inevitable with the technical applicability of it. I only see incomprehensible hostility to theories about freedom on the part of you all, not like you have some other math and observations about freedom of any kind to offer. You are all simply against knowledge about freedom, which is terrible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by dokukaeru, posted 08-31-2008 8:14 PM dokukaeru has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by dokukaeru, posted 08-31-2008 8:51 PM Syamsu has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 30 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 141 of 224 (480110)
08-31-2008 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Granny Magda
08-31-2008 7:39 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
I know that creationists are desperate for anything that can be made to look as though it supports your views, but this just seems desperate.

That is what creation "science" is all about.

It has no necessary relation to science and everything to do with religious apologetics.

Creation "scientists" (many or most of whom have degrees in theology and related subjects) look for any possible information which when stretched, twisted, misinterpreted, or otherwise abused, can be made to seem to support their religious beliefs--and then its off to the races.

I think this thread is a classic example.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Granny Magda, posted 08-31-2008 7:39 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 142 of 224 (480111)
08-31-2008 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Syamsu
08-31-2008 8:29 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
Syamsu writes:

I think Dubois anticipation theory is going to make it in science, thats kind of inevitable with the technical applicability of it.

Then why dont you please explain to us?

I only see incomprehensible hostility to theories about freedom on the part of you all, not like you have some other math and observations about freedom of any kind to offer.

All I see from you is bare assertions, invocation of magic, and an inability to explain anything Syamsu.

STILL WAITING FOR A RESPONSE TO Message 101

You are all simply against knowledge about freedom, which is terrible.

No, we are against delusion assertions without any scientific evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Syamsu, posted 08-31-2008 8:29 PM Syamsu has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 621 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 143 of 224 (480115)
08-31-2008 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Syamsu
08-31-2008 8:13 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
Hi, Syamsu

Syamsu writes:

Bluejay writes:

What decisions do these toothbrushes make?

When do they make these decisions?

I dont particularly know what decisions...

Let me interrupt here for a second. This is one of the major problems with your idea: it does not make predictions. If it does not put forward a prediction, we cannot run an experiment to determine if the theory works, because experiments test theories based on their predictions.

Okay, continuing with the quote:

Syamsu writes:

...I assume a toothbrush degrades of its own accord, and can do so in alternative ways.

You have mentioned alternatives many times in this thread.

You are saying that possible alternatives are proof for "conscious" decision-making?

So, when I flip a coin, the coin decides whether it will land on heads or tails?

So, let's design a coin-flipping machine that will apply the exact same amount of force and spin to each coin flip. And, let's say that it flipped 100 coins, and that 97 of them landed on tails. Would you take the three that landed on heads as evidence for "freewill" in the system?

-----

P.S. Please use "quote" or "qs" boxes in your replies, because some posts you respond to contain more than one question, and it's sometimes hard to tell which question you're responding to.


-Bluejay

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Syamsu, posted 08-31-2008 8:13 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 2:11 AM Blue Jay has responded

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3514 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 144 of 224 (480133)
09-01-2008 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Blue Jay
08-31-2008 9:11 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
I would take the 3 as an indication of a little freedom in the system yes.

There are many predictions possible based on theory of freedom, such as that with equal starting conditions you get different results.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2008 9:11 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2008 4:12 AM Syamsu has responded
 Message 156 by Blue Jay, posted 09-01-2008 10:34 AM Syamsu has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10211
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 145 of 224 (480136)
09-01-2008 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Syamsu
08-31-2008 7:13 PM


Romantic Paperclips?
Yes I do believe toothbrushes make decisions

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHH!!!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You earlier suggested that inanimate objects could also experience love?
Do you think that, as well as decisions, paperclips, for example, are capable of love?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Syamsu, posted 08-31-2008 7:13 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 6:30 AM Straggler has responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10211
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 146 of 224 (480137)
09-01-2008 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Syamsu
09-01-2008 2:11 AM


Determinism
I would take the 3 as an indication of a little freedom in the system yes.

How does freedom theory account for the indisputable fact that simple physical systems, like two balls colliding, are exceptionally predictable and therefore have much less "freedom" than complex conscious systems such as human beings?

If both balls and humans are equally capable of making decisions what makes one agent more "free" than another according to your theory?

There are many predictions possible based on theory of freedom, such as that with equal starting conditions you get different results.

So what predictions does freedom theory make that conventional science cannot? That is the question required to actually test this theory of yours.

What you seem to be talking about here (although frankly I don't think you realise it) is determinism. Mechanistic determinism in particular. Quantum theory however is non-deterministic by it's very nature. Even classical mechanics suggests that the evolution over time of a system can be so sensitive to differences in initial conditions that they are effectively unpredictable. This is called chaos theory.
So science is able to describe why certain systems are inherently less predictable without invoking the free-will of coffe cups, pooper scoopers and other such ridiculous and unevidenced ideas.

I suspect that, again without really even having this clear in your own head, you are taking the unpredictable aspects of relatively complex systems that are due to chaos and/or quantum theory and claiming them as evidence for "freedom".

The whole theory seems to fall apart, making you look very silly in the process, when the concepts of freedom are applied to simple and highly predictable systems comprised of inanimate objects that quite evidently are not "deciding" anything at all.

Based on your contribution so far I would guess that any discussion of quantum interpretations or chaos theory will be so far over your head as to give pilots of long haul aircraft cause for concern. But what the hell.........

Let the hilarity continue :D


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 2:11 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 6:01 AM Straggler has responded

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3514 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 147 of 224 (480141)
09-01-2008 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
09-01-2008 4:12 AM


Re: Determinism
I think you are mistaken in that chaos theory does not involve indeterminacy according to the standard interpretation.

As far as I know in standard quantum theory the decision is with the observer (or actually the issue of decisionmaking is fudged with the scientist as an observer, as explained before 50/50 uncertainty of the scientist, instead of indeterminacy of the system itself), and therefore there is no indeterminacy in quantum theory.

In any case I fail to understand your objections then. If it is acting indeterminately as you say, then toothbrushes can act alternative ways.

And let's not forget that toothbrushes here means the entire inanimate universe every starsystem etc. That supposedly it could have turned out alternative ways of it's own accord.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2008 4:12 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by mark24, posted 09-01-2008 6:45 AM Syamsu has responded
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2008 8:00 AM Syamsu has responded

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3514 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 148 of 224 (480144)
09-01-2008 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Straggler
09-01-2008 3:37 AM


Re: Romantic Paperclips?
I'm inclined to believe so, since love has preference over hate, in common judgement. Again, it just seems you have some sort of science of good and evil.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2008 3:37 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2008 10:12 AM Syamsu has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3962
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 149 of 224 (480147)
09-01-2008 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Syamsu
08-31-2008 6:26 PM


Re: Good Planets and Evil Toothbrushes
So they do make conscious choices? If they do, what part of the planet does the thinking? How does it affect it's environment?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Syamsu, posted 08-31-2008 6:26 PM Syamsu has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3119 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 150 of 224 (480148)
09-01-2008 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Syamsu
09-01-2008 6:01 AM


Re: Determinism
Syamsu,

As far as I know in standard quantum theory the decision is with the observer (or actually the issue of decisionmaking is fudged with the scientist as an observer, as explained before 50/50 uncertainty of the scientist, instead of indeterminacy of the system itself), and therefore there is no indeterminacy in quantum theory.

The observer does not make a decision, though. Obvious really.

You haven't really thought this through, have you?

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 6:01 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Syamsu, posted 09-01-2008 7:40 AM mark24 has responded

  
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