Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 95 (8832 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-19-2018 6:59 PM
217 online now:
jar, Meddle, Modulous (AdminModulous), Tangle (4 members, 213 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Nator2
Post Volume:
Total: 830,257 Year: 5,080/29,783 Month: 1,012/1,467 Week: 209/462 Day: 38/23 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
10111213
14
15Next
Author Topic:   update: freedom found, natural selection theory pushed aside
Straggler
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 196 of 224 (480727)
09-05-2008 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Syamsu
09-05-2008 4:22 PM


The Importance of Brains
Unsurprisingly interpretations of quantum mechanics seems to be a bit beyond you. So lets try a less conceptually difficult line of questioning instead.

DECISIONS AND BRAINS
Hopefully we can both agree that a mouse appears to display some level of decision making ability. Able to make choices and seemingly able to demonstrate some level of freewill. Yes?
If we remove the brain of this mouse I think it is fair to say that an evident diminishment of it's ability to make decisions would be observed. It's ability to demonstrate freewill would, I hope we can agree, be somewhat impaired.

THE GLUE THAT HOLDS IT ALL TOGETHER
Now lets take a toothbrush. Does this demonstrate any observable ability to make choices? Does it undertake any noticeable acts of apparent freewill? Is there any part of the toothbrush that we could remove that would have any apparent effect on it's behavior? If we cut it in half would each half exhibit independent behaviour or would they still act as a composite body with a single will with regard to decision making? Is each bristle an independent decision-making entity or does the glue that holds it all together transform the toothbrush entity into something that is greater than the sum of it's parts?

QUESTION
Given all of the above what on Earth leads you to the conclusion that brains and the ability to make decisions are independent of each other?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Syamsu, posted 09-05-2008 4:22 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 4:18 AM Straggler has responded

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 197 of 224 (480746)
09-06-2008 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Straggler
09-05-2008 6:08 PM


Re: Anticipation vs Front-Loading vs Teleology?
Blind random chance is not a working cocept. In my last post to you i just replaced the word decision with the word realized, since it is not possible to avoid the concept with free behaviour.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Straggler, posted 09-05-2008 6:08 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Blue Jay, posted 09-06-2008 9:28 AM Syamsu has not yet responded
 Message 201 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 10:10 AM Syamsu has not yet responded

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 198 of 224 (480749)
09-06-2008 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Straggler
09-05-2008 8:00 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Your problem is with the simple logic of freedom.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Straggler, posted 09-05-2008 8:00 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 10:17 AM Syamsu has responded

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 199 of 224 (480751)
09-06-2008 5:10 AM


As far as I can tell, there is no counterargument, or otherwise i dont understand anything of the counterargument. So I will just proceed to explain how the universe looks according to creationism.

Considering a particular specie, for instance the elephant, to find the origin we must trace back to the decisions at which the elephant was determined to be. That means we must trace back the likelyhood of the elephant coming to be to zero, finding all decisions along the way. In doing this we must determine its kind. For example it was already likely near the start of the universe that there would be a creature with 4 legs. So the decision to create the elephant is a subset of the decision to create creatures with four legs. So these basic forms which have a high likelyhood at the start of the universe are kinds.

etc.


  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 200 of 224 (480764)
09-06-2008 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Syamsu
09-06-2008 4:11 AM


Re: Anticipation vs Front-Loading vs Teleology?
Hi, Syamsu.

Syamsu writes:

Blind random chance is not a working concept.

Why not?

Edited by Bluejay, : "qs" problems


-Bluejay

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 4:11 AM Syamsu has not yet responded

Straggler
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 201 of 224 (480767)
09-06-2008 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Syamsu
09-06-2008 4:11 AM


Blind Random Chance
Blind random chance is not a working concept.

This is the basis of your whole position but you yet again assert it with no supporting argument, evidence or reason. You have no case that anyone can see.

Why is blind random chance not a working concept?

In my last post to you i just replaced the word decision with the word realized, since it is not possible to avoid the concept with free behaviour.

I didn't even use the word "realized" :confused:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 4:11 AM Syamsu has not yet responded

Straggler
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 202 of 224 (480768)
09-06-2008 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Syamsu
09-06-2008 4:18 AM


Re: The Importance of Brains
Straggler Writes
QUESTION: Given all of the above what on Earth leads you to the conclusion that brains and the ability to make decisions are independent of each other?

Syamsu Replies

Your problem is with the simple logic of freedom.

Syamsu you seem to be completely incapable of making any actual case or even answering any direct question put to you with respect to the position that you are apparently advocating.

And then you wonder why mockery, ridicule and frustration are the result.

I will ask again -
Question: Given all of the observable evidence to the contrary what on Earth leads you to the conclusion that brains and the ability to make decisions are independent of each other?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 4:18 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 10:37 AM Straggler has responded

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 203 of 224 (480773)
09-06-2008 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Straggler
09-06-2008 10:17 AM


Re: The Importance of Brains
As before, once we accept the logic of freedom, then freedom must be fundamental in the universe. So when you say toothbrushes dont decide, then that just means a decider decides the state of toothbrushes. As demonstrated with the interference of light, and interference of molecules up to 6 atoms large. These things dont decide their own state, and one can manipulate where they are by deciding how to look at them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 10:17 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 11:05 AM Syamsu has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 204 of 224 (480778)
09-06-2008 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Syamsu
09-06-2008 10:37 AM


Re: The Importance of Brains
I will ask again -
Question: Given all of the observable evidence to the contrary what on Earth leads you to the conclusion that brains and the ability to make decisions are independent of each other?

As before, once we accept the logic of freedom, then freedom must be fundamental in the universe. So when you say toothbrushes dont decide, then that just means a decider decides the state of toothbrushes. As demonstrated with the interference of light, and interference of molecules up to 6 atoms large. These things dont decide their own state, and one can manipulate where they are by deciding how to look at them.

You are back to quantum interpretations again!!! You have already demonstrated a gross inability to comprehend that topic.
But anyway.......what has this got to do with the question asked? How do you account for the quite apparent difference in ability to make decisions between a mouse with a brain as compared to a mouse without a brain? Or indeed a toothbrush?

I ask yet again -

Question: Given all of the observable evidence to the contrary what on Earth leads you to the conclusion that brains and the ability to make decisions are independent of each other?

Can you just answer the question?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 10:37 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 3:33 PM Straggler has responded

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 205 of 224 (480804)
09-06-2008 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Straggler
09-06-2008 11:05 AM


Re: The Importance of Brains
The toothbrushes decide their own state because it would be too weird if an outside decider did that for them. Then your toothbrush would be in a wavestate of admittedly tiny alternatve states, prior to you entering the bathroom.

It is actually a first for there to appear a paper from a notable scientist that asserts to explain free will, among other things. So unlike what you believe, freedom is actually relatively new in science. And freedom is all a creationist needs to argue with scientific merit, as I argued about the elephant as an example. Its entirely reasonable, understandable as it always was and now its scientific as well, because freedom is proven to be real.

So then you have this blind random chance thing which supposedly does not involve decisions, which makes it a mystery how you get from alternatives to a realized alternative. This is your counterargument I believe. Well if its a mystery to you its a myster to me also, it does not make logical sense, which kind of inhibits the formulating of a hypothesis to test it. The paper referenced in post 1 talks about randomness, but talks about it as a way of making decisions. And then the paper argues that informed and reasoned decisions formate species. But it is all decisions, as like previously in science it was all causes, now it is all decision.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 11:05 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 3:39 PM Syamsu has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 206 of 224 (480807)
09-06-2008 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Syamsu
09-06-2008 3:33 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
So according to freedom theory are the decision making capablities of a living mouse with a brain present and intact the same as or less than the decision making capabilities of a mouse with it's brain removed?

In terms of freedom theory what, if any, is the difference between the two in terms of their ability to make decisions and choices?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 3:33 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 3:51 PM Straggler has responded

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 207 of 224 (480810)
09-06-2008 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Straggler
09-06-2008 3:39 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
That would be control.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 3:39 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 4:16 PM Syamsu has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 208 of 224 (480814)
09-06-2008 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Syamsu
09-06-2008 3:51 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
So according to freedom theory are the decision making capablities of a living mouse with a brain present and intact the same as or less than the decision making capabilities of a mouse with it's brain removed?

In terms of freedom theory what, if any, is the difference between the two in terms of their ability to make decisions and choices?

That would be control.

What does that mean?
Can you give a more specific practical example of the difference?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 3:51 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 5:44 PM Straggler has responded

Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3330 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 209 of 224 (480821)
09-06-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Straggler
09-06-2008 4:16 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
I don't know more about it then yourself.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 4:16 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2008 6:56 PM Syamsu has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 210 of 224 (480827)
09-06-2008 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Syamsu
09-06-2008 5:44 PM


Re: The Importance of Brains
I don't know more about it then yourself.

Well I would say that the brainless mouse is incapable of making decisions. It's dead. It has no brain.
Are you saying that according to freedom theory the dead, brainless mouse is now incapable of making decisions too?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 5:44 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Syamsu, posted 09-06-2008 7:29 PM Straggler has responded

RewPrev1
...
10111213
14
15Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018