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Author Topic:   Falsification theory of Natural Selection
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5611 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 1 of 174 (10323)
05-24-2002 1:33 PM


This post is mainly about falsifying the theory of Natural Selection, which both creationists (if in a limited way) and evolutionists accept, and replacing it with a general theory of reproduction.
My method of investigating the theory of Natural Selection is to first answer the question, what are the minimum requirements that need to be present in nature for the theory to apply?, and second to then look at what physical relationships and properties the theory describes.
From reading some bits here and there, the minimal definition of Natural Selection I found was:
differential reproductive success = 2 variants in a population that have a different "success" in reproducing themselves (in a shared environment).
I will assume these variants reproduce asexually, to keep in line with the rule to look for minimum requirements.
Next come the physical relationships: Do the variants have to increase or decrease each other's reproductive "success" in some way for the theory to apply?
If you accept the theory of Natural Selection, it could be informative to stake a position on this question, yes, no, or don't know, before reading any further. You can check in the next paragraph if your position is the same as that of scientists of which I asked the same question. If you would not stake your position now, then I think it's pretty likely you will just presume to know what the mainstream science position is, where in reality you might not.
In asking this question to some knowledgeable biologists in open forum on the talk.origins newsgroup, the answer I got was that the variants don't have to influence each other's reproduction for the theory to apply. Of course there are many definitions of Natural Selection, and most of them are actually based on competitive reproductive success, in stead of differential reproductive success. In competition the variants would always influence each other's rate of reproduction, but this is not part of the standard definition of Natural Selection in science, or so I'm told.
Differential just means comparative, so to measure differential reproductive success is same like measuring the lightintensity of some stars and calling that the theory of differential lightintensity. This difference in reproductive success can't be called a "mechanism" by any reasonable usage of the word mechanism, just as we can't call it a mechanism that, for instance, the eifeltower is taller then londonbridge (a would be theory of differential buildinglength). For it to be called mechanical, the variants would have to influence each other's rates of reproduction in some way (competition).
So by this argument all the references to Natural Seletion as a mechanism, are either false, or refer to a definition of Natural Selection as competitive reproductive success. As before, the focus in the standard theory is on an essentially platonic comparison on reproductive success. Platonic relationships are somewhat useless in science. I can think up a million or so theories same as differential reproductive success as with stars, buildings etc. etc.
Because the relationship between the variants is essentially platonic (they don't neccessarily influence each other's rate of reproduction), there is no reason anymore to require the variants to be together. So then we can talk of Natural Selection occurring where one variant is in Europe, and another is in the USA. And really, you can also theorize about Natural Selection where one variant is on Earth, and the other variant is on some other planet somewhere in a similar environment. It would do no good to argue that the variants need to share an environment for the theory to apply, hence they have to be together, because that requirement to share an environment has lost all it's underlying reasoning by not requiring the variants to influence each other's reproduction in any way. We can get exactly the same results if the variants were wide apart, and if they were sharing an environment. As far as I know, biologists do this all the time, collect results from labexperiments in different cities, and just add them all together to derive a more accurate mean-average differential rate of reproduction.
So the physical relationship that Natural Selection always describes is the relationship of a variant to it's environment, and not one between variants. The theory then posits another physical relationship of the other variant and how it relates to the same, or similar environment in respect to it's reproduction. But then this second relationship is partly platonic also. It is required that variant B shares an environment with variant A, but then it is unclear to me what this sharing should consist of. If variant A can get resource X, but variant B cannot get resource X at all, does this then still constitute A and B sharing the environmental factor X? In the standard theory of Natural Selection this is considered sharing, although the relationship of B to X is platonic, X doesn't influence the rate of reproduction of B at all. By now it should be obvious to anyone reading this post that Occam's razor can cut a few platonic things in the standard theory of Natural Selection.
All that is really of any scientific merit in the theory of Natural Selection is to describe organisms in terms of the event of their reproduction. So this means that what is valid is a general theory of reproduction, in stead of the special case of reproduction called differential reproductive success. Experience in other discussions tells me that at this point, you might need to think about the scientific merit of describing organisms in terms of the event of their reproduction. This general theory provides the framework for describing most all activity of the organisms, so it really is of central interest in biology. By it you might come to know that white moths sit on white birch trees for cover, and black moths sit on polluted black trees. You could also learn that by the theory of Natural Selection, but then in Natural Selection theory you would ignore all the other attributes the moth has except wingcolor. This is so because the other attributes are much the same, and therefore the theory does not apply to them. In some situations it may be more or less valid to ignore all other attributes, (when the attribute of wingcolor controls the chance of reproduction) but it provides an extremely skewed view of the activity and attributes of the moth in every other situation (most all the time).
If you think this through you will find you can do everything you want to do with a general theory of reproduction, including describing what was originally intended to be covered by the theory of Natural Selection, less it's platonic relationships. It is also possible to reinstate the theory of Natural Selection by reconfiguring the meaning of selection. The new selection would then become to mean, selecting between reproducing, and not reproducing, in stead of the current meaning of selection; one variant reproducing, and the other variant not reproducing.
Is a breeder able to select from a population of one, if need be? I think so, the breeder selects to breed or not to breed for each, and does not neccessarily select to breed the one, and not to breed the other. To select from a population of one is impossible with the theory of Natural Selection, because of it's requirement to have variation present (a breeder may also select to breed 2 from a population of 2, which is also impossible with Natural Selection). On the basis of a general theory, you can see the environment as selecting for each organism to reproduce or not to reproduce. This does not preclude the chance of reproduction of one organism to be interdependent with the chance of reproduction of another organism, (competition), but rather it makes for a flexible basic-theory through which any event of reproduction can be described by adding more and more complicating factors, like sexual reproduction, competition etc. Unlike with the theory of Natural Selection, with a general theory of reproduction you can simply point to any organism you see and look at how this or that event influences their chance of reproduction. You can look at what the main events are in the reproductioncycle of an organism, the events that normally influence the chance of reproduction greatly. You cannot possibly do that with the theory of Natural Selection because of all the requirements for it to apply. The theory of Natural Selection is basicly useless on any fieldtrip, where you will only note stasis in nature by the theory of Natural Selection.
Where a general theory of reproduction has the individual as the unit of selection, the standard theory of Natural Selection has a variational pairing as the unit of selection. I know Darwinists always say that the individual is the unit of selection, but as shown, strictly speaking it is based on a variational pairing, and does not apply when there is just a single organism present, or when there is no variaton between them.
some more points:
- focusing on an essentially platonic "relationship" on reproduction between variants obscures, or makes it very problematical, to consider any actual physical relationships there might be between the variants (such as a competition, or replacement, or mutual benefit on reproduction). Significantly from when Darwin published his book "the origin of species" biologists have tended to move away from describing the web of relationships of organic life to each other. Even relatively recently professor Dawkins wrote some things that make the foodchain seem like a coincedental happenstance, when he argued it is somehow wrong to assign "purpose" to the foodchain. (ie. it is not the purpose of flowers for bees to make honey from)
- to make the difference more clear between a general theory of reproduction, and the theory of Natural Selection I devised an alternative metaphore to the metaphore adopted by Darwinists of "Nature red in tooth and claw" which emphasizes war as the defining characteristic of the econonomy of nature. Based on a general theory of reproduction, this metaphore should in stead read "Nature wet in p*n*s and v*g*n*", which is intended to emphasize reproduction as defining of the economy of nature.
- I would not want a theory of reproductive success as alternate to a theory of differential reproductive success. I would want a theory based on the chance of reproduction, in stead of the rate of reproduction. This is because I think chance more easily denotes that all organisms come to die, they all come to fail to reproduce. A point often missed by Darwinists since it is not in the theory of Natural Selection, eventhough they of course know it to be true. Also when arguing in terms of a rate of reproduction it is often missed that the number of offspring is also an attribute of an organism. (a salmon lays thousands of eggs, a swallow only a few)
Also a theory based on the chance of reproduction, relates well to a would be theory of intelligent design of life. Many people at work with artificial intelligence base their modern definition of intelligence on concepts of randomness, chance, choice etc., in short events where things can go one way or another. Chance is endemic in nature generally, and maybe more so with organic life, through the environment of the nervous systems that many organisms have, and by organisms doing the same thing. Organisms with the same structure go after the same resources, so which one gets the resources in the event is many times left to chance, like with rolling dice. I think a theory of intelligent forming of life is quite likely to have scientific merit, especially with attributes that seemingly relate to the nervous system of some organism as it's environment (mating-attributes).
Strictly speaking any scientific theory of intelligence would incorporate the entire universe as an intelligence, from beginning till end. Like with Einstein's intuition/belief in an illimitable intelligence being manifested in the universe. This sort of theory is popular among Catholic intellectuals, it treats the existence of the universe as a continual uncertainty. ie Matter doesn't "just" exist after having been created, it does something through which it keeps existing. Now only to relate the passage of time to events with several possible outcomes, and even the most literalist creation story can be held as possibly true. This is so because the relative certainties of any kind of organism coming into existence would likely have been set at the beginning of the universe to a very great extent. For instance you could theorise that the likelyhood of a creature with eyes coming into being is 99 percent an after-effect from determinations at the beginning of the universe, and that we have them now is just 1 percent from determinations later then the beginning. So by such a theory it is possible that all major kinds of organisms have been created in one determination, or six determinations, at the beginning of the universe. When professor Hawkings says we don't know what time is, then to relate time to events with several possible outcomes would be a good candidate for a definition of time IMO. When nothing changes, it is as if time stands still.
Determinations/decisions do not actually argue back to God as the decisionmaker, they argue back to a mathematical zero at it's base. The base has to be zero, because otherwise you would end up in endless regress of determinations, which would make the theory meaningless. Any notions of God making the decisions would have to be transcendent, which is still in line with "creatio ex nihilo" theology. Theories of intelligent design are quite speculative of course, but still this speculation is legitimate and invalidates the preconceived notions against intelligent design.
IMO accepting a general theory of reproduction would defuse the evolution vs creation debate. This is not much because a general theory of reproduction relates well to a theory of intelligent design, but mainly because it would stop much of the Social Darwinism stemming from the theory of Natural Selection, which Social Darwinism is especially related to the obscure platonic relationships the theory of Natural Selection sets out. Except for (pretty stale) arguments based on defining words in such a way that any evidence of any link of Social Darwinism to Darwinism is, as per definition, a theoretical impossiblity, every conceivable sort of evidence you may think of that goes to prove such a link, does exist. This includes extensive Social Darwinism of most all influential Darwinian scientists in their main works of science, direct references to Darwinism as justifying this or that action by a large share of politicians, activists, and people in general, teaching of Darwinism in schools as a basis of morality, the express denial of God's existence as a Darwinist finding (general atheism), or the express denial of God having something to do with any particular part of organic life (specific atheism) in mainstream science literature and textbooks etc.
If you would respond to this post, then please note that I might have heared the argument you would like to submit before, and dismissed it with some fairly obvious counterargument. What I mean to say is that you should make both arguments for and against a position before posting as I have done, because if you consistently and solely make arguments on one side, and leave it up to me to make arguments for the other side, then the discussion will inevitably detoriate into a meaningless tit-for-tat fairly quickly. I know not everybody agrees to this rule, in the book "the Blind Watchmaker" Dawkins says he would never make arguments in support of a theory of intelligent design because he thinks it immoral to make arguments in support of a position you don't really believe in. So not respond like Dawkins please. Also since I'm inquiring into the theory of Natural Selection, it is better to make (abstract) examples with the minimal requirements for Natural Selection. If you would give examples with more then the minimal requirements then the added things will lead to confusion over what is covered by the theory of Natural Selection, and what isn't.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Peter, posted 05-27-2002 11:00 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 32 by Brad McFall, posted 06-06-2002 4:24 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 2 of 174 (10337)
05-24-2002 6:32 PM


I've moved this topic to the Evolution forum.
--Percy
   EvC Forum Administrator
[This message has been edited by Percipient, 05-24-2002]

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 174 (10396)
05-27-2002 5:23 AM


It seems that your true target is Social Darwinists and atheists hijacking evolution for their cause. However, your question about natural selection deserves a reply.
Natural selection was based on the Malthusian Argument, which states that reproductive rate is always higher than production rate. We all know that there are not enough resources and niches in the world (anybody whose job application has been rejected should know that). In normal circumstances, every variant do get their share of everything. However, their multiplication would crowd the place sooner or later, and then competition comes. Any slight difference would tip the balance, either dooming the variant into extinction, or improving its success and reproductive rate.
Selective pressure does not come solely from the environment. The living creature does not stand alone facing the world. There are others around and all are bent on reproduction, driven by replicators inside which build them (you're familiar with Dawkins, so you know what that means). They also have variations, and they interact with our subject. By interaction I mean competition, predation, parasitism, etc. And as a whole, this interaction keeps everybody in constant chasing. Different reproductive rates caused natural selection, which results in changes of genotype frequency within a population. Or, in other words, evolution.
Try reading Darwin's chapter on Natural Selection. Dawkins is too elaborative.

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1500 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 4 of 174 (10412)
05-27-2002 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Syamsu
05-24-2002 1:33 PM


The problem you are having is that your 'model' of natural
selection is too narrow and limited.
Natural selection DOES operate around differential reproductive
success.
The comparison is NOT natural selection.
Natural selection is the end result of differential reproductive
success.
e.g.
An environment has two species A and B, and two resources X and Y.
A requires X, and B requires Y for survival.
The distribution of X and Y is fairly even across the environment,
but once consumed replenishes slowly.
An individual of species A, A' comes about by mutation that can
use both X and Y to maintain itself. All A' offspring share
this ability.
As resources X and Y deplete A' has a better chance than either A
or B of survival because it can utilise either resource.
New variant A' will eventually replace both A and B, because, on
average A' types will reproduce more often.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Syamsu, posted 05-24-2002 1:33 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 05-27-2002 12:53 PM Peter has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5611 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 5 of 174 (10414)
05-27-2002 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Peter
05-27-2002 11:00 AM


Again, the standard theory of Natural Selection does not neccesitate competition, at least that is what I've been assured. Competition, when it occurs, is an incident to Natural Selection and not a neccessary part of it. I should say though, that I'm not absolutely sure whether these people were accurate in representing the mainstream science definition of Natural Selection. Anyway, I've seen it termed differential reproductive success in some science papers, and if competition was required in Natural Selection, then I'm sure they would have called it competitive reproductive success, in stead of reproductive success. That's my reason for believing them, and why my falsification is focused on this particular definition of Natural Selection called differential reproductive success, which is focused on a comparison.
But I can also falsify competitive reproductive success.
First there is species A with a population stable around 100.
Then a mutation occurs resulting in variant B.
In some time the population stabilizes at 80 A and 60 B.
This does not reasonably all fall under competitive reproductive success does it?
Maybe part of it does, but really the variants occupy separate niches also. So this constitutes a fault of ommission in the theory of competitive reproductive success. There are more possibilities of what can follow after a mutation happens (like mutual benefit of the variants), and I'm sure all theoretical possibilities have also actually occured somewhere in Nature. All of that can be covered by a general theory of reproduction, and only replacement would be covered by competitive reproductive success. That means competitive reproductive success is a subset-theory to a general theory of reproduction, where there are more subsets then just competition (ie. something like divergence, and mutual benefit)
In response to the other poster, I don't like to read Darwin, because he doesn't write in a formal way. I can cite some Darwin to validate my point, but then Darwin's work is contradictory in many places, and you could then cite something back at me, and we would end up doing something like an "exegesis" of Darwin's work, which would just be a meaningless argument from the authority of Darwin anyway. Darwin wrote somewhere that a plant can be said to struggle against the drought. This can be interpreted to be in line with a general theory of reproduction (where variation is not required for the theory to apply).
Also you both make a logic error. If at all, competition does not result from different rates of reproduction, competition results from reproduction.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Peter, posted 05-27-2002 11:00 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Andya Primanda, posted 05-28-2002 3:47 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 10 by Peter, posted 05-28-2002 10:17 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 174 (10455)
05-28-2002 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Syamsu
05-27-2002 12:53 PM


Competition results in natural selection, not the other way round. Syamsu, you are right when you said that competition is the result of reproduction. Crowding and depletion of resources do result in competition, but the main source is reproduction.
However your point is still vague for me. What is your view of natural selection, really? I assume it is not the 'nature red in tooth or claw' or 'jungle law: kill or be killed, might is right' type.
You claim to propose a general theory of reproduction--how does it differ with natural selection? You do not state it clearly in previous posts.
btw, I think we're not far from each other...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 05-27-2002 12:53 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Syamsu, posted 05-28-2002 5:39 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5611 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 7 of 174 (10457)
05-28-2002 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Andya Primanda
05-28-2002 3:47 AM


My view of Natural Selection is that it's false, the fundamentals of it have not been worked out properly, and the falsity of it stimulates Social Darwinism enormously. (Numerous Darwinist philosophers also argue that Social or Moral Darwinism is inherent in Darwinism, in stead of being imposed on it). I consider the construction of a theory to be a highly technical job, and the endproduct of formalized systemized knowledge is what I call science. Darwin, Dawkins, Gould, Fischer, Haeckel etc. the most influential Darwinists, all write in a very prosaic way in their main works of science, there is no formalized systemized knowledge there. Again, your conception of Natural Selection neccesitating competition between variants, is not the mainstream science definition of Natural Selection as far as I know.
Some differences between a general theory of reproduction (GTOR) and standard theory of Natural Selection (TONS) are:
--------------------+GTOR---------------+TONS---------------
-unit of selection single--------------variational pairing
-applicability-----most all the time---almost never(stasis)
to organisms
-relationships-----physical-------------partly physical, partly
described------------------------------platonic, focused on
---------------------------------------platonic relationship
-meaning of--------for an individual---for one individual to
selection----------to reproduce, or----reproduce and the other
-------------------not to reproduce----individual not to reproduce
-metaphore---------nature wet in p*n*s-nature red in tooth and
-------------------and v*g*n*----------claw (emphasize fighting)
-------------------(emphasize
--------------------reproduction)
I think maybe the easiest way to get into my argument is to first consider if it has scientific merit to describe organisms in terms of the chance of the event of their reproduction. Say there are only white moths in some place that sit on white birch trees (the theory of Natural Selection does not apply here, because there is no variation). Does it have scientific merit to describe the wingcolor as contributing to the chance of reproduction of the moth? And then consider every other attribute the moth has, and how it functions in it's reproduction. Once you have accepted that it has scientific merit to describe organisms in such a way, you should know the theory of Natural Selection (differential reproductive succeess), to be either false or a subset-theory (competitive reproductive success) to a general theory of reproduction.
We're not to far apart right. Good to know there's somebody else posting from Indonesia. I immigrated here some time ago from Holland. My original name is Nando Ronteltap and I still use that name in private, but I prefer using Syamsu in public.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Andya Primanda, posted 05-28-2002 3:47 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by compmage, posted 05-28-2002 7:24 AM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 9 by Andya Primanda, posted 05-28-2002 7:45 AM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 11 by Quetzal, posted 05-28-2002 10:39 AM Syamsu has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5175 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 8 of 174 (10460)
05-28-2002 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Syamsu
05-28-2002 5:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:

Say there are only white moths in some place that sit on white birch trees (the theory of Natural Selection does not apply here, because there is no variation). Does it have scientific merit to describe the wingcolor as contributing to the chance of reproduction of the moth? And then consider every other attribute the moth has, and how it functions in it's reproduction. Once you have accepted that it has scientific merit to describe organisms in such a way, you should know the theory of Natural Selection (differential reproductive succeess), to be either false or a subset-theory (competitive reproductive success) to a general theory of reproduction.

Variation comes from mutations not from Natural Selection, or did I missunderstand what you said?
However, Natural Selection, as I understand it, goes something like this:
1) There is an exponential increase in numbers.
2) There are a limited number of resourses.
3) This results in competition.
4) Certain creatures (plants, animals, etc) are better able to produce offspring (due to mutation).
5) These will come to dominate the population.
It should be noted that without mutations Natural Selection will have no 'raw materials' to work with.
I don't see how it could be otherwise?
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Syamsu, posted 05-28-2002 5:39 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 174 (10462)
05-28-2002 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Syamsu
05-28-2002 5:39 AM


platonic relationship?
(i do not comprehend)
So it seems that your GTOR assumes that a creature may decide whether it wants to reproduce or not.
It seems that GTOR is only applicable to humans. I can't see how grass or mosquitos or bacteria would do that.
btw, your name is familiar. Have you been writing reviews of Dawkins' books in amazon.com?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Syamsu, posted 05-28-2002 5:39 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1500 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 10 of 174 (10464)
05-28-2002 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Syamsu
05-27-2002 12:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
Again, the standard theory of Natural Selection does not neccesitate competition, at least that is what I've been assured. Competition, when it occurs, is an incident to Natural Selection and not a neccessary part of it.

Natural selection is about survival of the fittest.
It's not direct competition of separate species, but competition
for mates within a species. Its an integral part of natural
selection.
The limited resource is/are individuals to mate with (in sexually
reproducing organisms).
For asexual reproduction then the only way that there can be a
differential reproductive success is if some organisms can better
utilise the environment to gain the energy required to reproduce.
Competition of some form seems integral to natural selection.
quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:

But I can also falsify competitive reproductive success.
First there is species A with a population stable around 100.
Then a mutation occurs resulting in variant B.
In some time the population stabilizes at 80 A and 60 B.
This does not reasonably all fall under competitive reproductive success does it?

The variants are only subject to natural selection if one
variant has a survival advantage over the other (like in my A'
example previously).
Otherwise no selective pressure exists.
quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:

Maybe part of it does, but really the variants occupy separate niches also.

No. They are variants of the same organism, and so occupy the same
niche (by definition).
quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
So this constitutes a fault of ommission in the theory of competitive reproductive success. There are more possibilities of what can follow after a mutation happens (like mutual benefit of the variants), and I'm sure all theoretical possibilities have also actually occured somewhere in Nature. All of that can be covered by a general theory of reproduction, and only replacement would be covered by competitive reproductive success. That means competitive reproductive success is a subset-theory to a general theory of reproduction, where there are more subsets then just competition (ie. something like divergence, and mutual benefit)

Natural selection only operates when there is an environmental
pressure which one variant can exploit more effectively than
another.
So in that sense you are correct, that natural selection is a sub-set
of reproduction. Natural selection does not operate ALL the time,
only when a variance within a species makes some individuals more
likely than others to survive (and thus breed).
It is SURVIVAL that is key to Natural Selection. Those that survive
long enough to breed pass on their traits.
quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:

Also you both make a logic error. If at all, competition does not result from different rates of reproduction, competition results from reproduction.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Competition results from limited resources, and can occur without
any reproduction going on at all.
Continuance of a species cannot happen without reproduction.
I think you are viewing the issue from two separate levels
without making the distinction.
Natural Selection operates at the level of the individual.
The resulting evolution operates at the level of the species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 05-27-2002 12:53 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5893 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 11 of 174 (10465)
05-28-2002 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Syamsu
05-28-2002 5:39 AM


Hi Syamasu,
I'm not sure the version of evolution by rm&ns you are arguing against is the main one used by evolutionary biology, although it does contain some of the same elements. I don't see the main elements of standard natural selection in your comparison.
Darwinian natural selection refers to the action of environmental factors (the selection) on the chances of reproduction of a particular genotype (the unique set of alleles posessed by an individual organism). As such, selection operates only on the level of the individual organism. Now obviously, the organism's "environment" includes other members of the same population/species, but it is by no means limited to this. When biologists talk about the fitness or "success" of an organism, they are referring to the survival of the individual to the point where it can pass on its genetic heritage. To use your white moth-on-white-tree example: that moth may have the best adaptation in the world, but if it gets eaten before it reproduces, it has been "selected against". Its entire genotype - the sum of its genetic heritage - is gone.
What you appear to be describing as natural selection above actually more resembles "evolution" itself - the end result at the population/species level of natural selection operating at the individual level. In other words, what you seem to be describing is the change in the distribution of expressed alleles (phenotype) over time within a population. This is NOT natural selection. Natural selection is one of the mechanisms of the change. Natural selection doesn't necessarily favor one individual or phenotype over another as you stated here: "meaning of selection" = "for one individual to reproduce and the other individual not to reproduce". Natural selection is not a zero sum game.
Perhaps a recap may be in order. Natural selection follows from these basic assumptions:
1. There must be heritable variation for some trait. Examples: beak size, color pattern, thickness of skin, fleetness, visual acuity.
2. There must be differential survival probability associated with the possession of that trait.
The result is that over time the population of each generation will consist of a higher proportion of individuals that possess whatever adaptation enabled their parents to survive and reproduce. If individuals having certain genes are better able to produce mature offspring than those without them, the frequency of those genes will increase. It does not imply competition, except metaphorically.
Consider a population of horses which has an equilibrium frequency of allele A (for soft enamaled teeth), and allele A' (for hard enameled teeth). Both types of teeth work well in the current environment (soft, low-silica C3 grasses). What happens when the environment changes? Say, a climate change favoring hardier C4 grasses (with higher silica content). The distribution of grasses will change, with a much greater resultant frequency of C4. The horses with A alleles will have their teeth wear down much faster, and hence live less long, producing less offspring. Over time, the frequency of A' alleles in the population will increase because of natural selection. There's no "competition" between horses per se, merely differential survival in the particular environment.
I hope this makes some sense in light of what you are arguing.
http://207.36.64.70/ubb/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 05-28-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Syamsu, posted 05-28-2002 5:39 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Syamsu, posted 05-28-2002 4:05 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5611 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 12 of 174 (10501)
05-28-2002 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Quetzal
05-28-2002 10:39 AM


As far as I can tell, you distinguish between the mechanism of Natural Selection (which is the same as what I called a general theory of reproduction), and the process of Natural Selection (which is the same as what I called differential reproductive success).
So I would argue that the description in terms of a process of Natural Selection is without scientific merit. When horses have two variants of teeth, you need to use the theory of mechanical Natural Selection twice. I just don't see any benefit in describing in terms of the process of Natural Selection, over describing in terms of the mechanism of Natural Selection. You would have to show some scientific benefit for adding complexity to a theory, especially since the complexity that is added consists of essentially platonic relationships.
As before, I think it is very problematical to consider physical relationships such as competition and mutual benefit among variants, when there are makeshift comparitive relationships imposed on my view of Nature from the theory of the process of Natural Selection.
To Andy, yes I've posted many reviews on Amazon, and you may find much of the same wording in my reviews there as you can also find in my first post on this thread. By Platonic I mean, not physically affecting each other, (the variants not increasing or decreasing each other's rate of reproduction). The word is also often used for people that love each other but don't have sex.
regards,
Mohammd Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Quetzal, posted 05-28-2002 10:39 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Quetzal, posted 05-29-2002 5:16 AM Syamsu has replied
 Message 14 by Peter, posted 05-29-2002 6:21 AM Syamsu has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5893 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 13 of 174 (10544)
05-29-2002 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Syamsu
05-28-2002 4:05 PM


Okay Syamasu. I give up. I honestly have no idea what you're arguing about. I'm sorry you consider the description/definition of natural selection I gave - the one used by every practicing evolutionary biologist, botanist, and ecologist - as "unscientific". I'm afraid I can't give you a better one. Enjoy your discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Syamsu, posted 05-28-2002 4:05 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Syamsu, posted 05-29-2002 7:18 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1500 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 14 of 174 (10546)
05-29-2002 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Syamsu
05-28-2002 4:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
As far as I can tell, you distinguish between the mechanism of Natural Selection (which is the same as what I called a general theory of reproduction), and the process of Natural Selection (which is the same as what I called differential reproductive success).

But YOU seem to be focussing on REPRODUCTION, when natural selection
is about SURVIVAL of an individual.
If a creature can breed for 10 time periods, but dies after only
4, it will reproduce less than on which survives for 8 time
periods.
That's common sense if reproductive rates of the two individuals
are platonic. http://207.36.64.70/ubb/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
IF some genetic trait of one individual allows it to survive
longer, then this selection is based upon an inhertible trait.
THAT is natural selection in operation.
Natural selection is one of the mechanisms by which evolution
takes place.
quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:

So I would argue that the description in terms of a process of Natural Selection is without scientific merit. When horses have two variants of teeth, you need to use the theory of mechanical Natural Selection twice. I just don't see any benefit in describing in terms of the process of Natural Selection, over describing in terms of the mechanism of Natural Selection. You would have to show some scientific benefit for adding complexity to a theory, especially since the complexity that is added consists of essentially platonic relationships.

There is no added complexity.
My opinion (sorry) is that YOU do not understand what you are
arguing.
To get a grip on natural selection you need to think at the level
of individuals, and then consider the effect on the species
over a number of generations.
quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:

As before, I think it is very problematical to consider physical relationships such as competition and mutual benefit among variants, when there are makeshift comparitive relationships imposed on my view of Nature from the theory of the process of Natural Selection.

I also think that by variants you are thinking of SEPARATE species.
I'm not entirely sure it would be deemed Natural Selection when
one is considering the competition of two species within the
same environmental niche.
Natural Selection is about a SINGLE species, and which individuals
are more suited to the environment in which they live.
quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:

To Andy, yes I've posted many reviews on Amazon, and you may find much of the same wording in my reviews there as you can also find in my first post on this thread. By Platonic I mean, not physically affecting each other, (the variants not increasing or decreasing each other's rate of reproduction). The word is also often used for people that love each other but don't have sex.
regards,
Mohammd Nor Syamsu

The variants don't increase/decrease each others rate of reproduction,
but the variation does.
The VARIANTS aren't the parameters/variables of Natural Selection
the VARIATIONS are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Syamsu, posted 05-28-2002 4:05 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Quetzal, posted 05-29-2002 7:19 AM Peter has not replied
 Message 17 by Syamsu, posted 05-30-2002 1:47 AM Peter has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5611 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 15 of 174 (10549)
05-29-2002 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Quetzal
05-29-2002 5:16 AM


You gave an excellent formulation of what I know to be the mainstream science definition of Natural Selection, which unlike what another poster stated, doesn't incorporate competition. You undercut my argument somewhat by giving two definitions of Natural Selection, as a mechanism, and as process.
So for the mechanism of Natural Selection to apply, only a single organism needs to be there, and there doesn't have to be any variation at all for the theory to apply.
You say that the horses don't compete per se, but it is possible they are competing. I mean it's theoretically possible that the horses with strong teeth, by their strong teeth, in effect decrease the chance of reproduction of the horses with weak teeth, or the other way around. It's also theoretically possible that the different teeth increase each other's reproduction. Again, these physical relationships are lost, through focusing on a "meaningless" comparison of frequency in the population. Basicly I argue to describe only physical relationships.
(a meaningful comparison of frequencies would be when some frequency influences the chance of reproduction, as with cyclic selection)
thanks for participating,
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Quetzal, posted 05-29-2002 5:16 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
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