How do you define the word Evolution?

Almost. TryCHANCE and SELECTION.Then you'd at least be in the right ball park.

Well, I just reminded Faith of this one so you might as well see it too. Beneficial mutation tracked to the specific gene. So now you have proof. Have you changed your mind?

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Gene mutation that causes phenotype change followed by selection which changes the population has been shown. That's the basic model for all evolutionary change demonstrated in real life today.

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Message 1 of 76 (785287)
Thursday, 02-06-2016 3:38 AM
After 15 years of analysis and experimentation the gene mutation that was responsible for the change in colour of the peppered moth from white to black has been found.
This is a really important conformation of the theory of evolution - it demonstrates not only the process of natural selection but also the role of beneficial, random, genetic mutation.

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This is a dozen years old now but maybe it'll stop you talking anymore nonsense on this particular issue. i draw your attention to point 9 in particular.

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Claim CA215:
The theory of evolution is useless, without practical application.

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Response:

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1.Evolutionary theory is the framework tying together all of biology. It explains similarities and differences between organisms, fossils, biogeography, drug resistance, extreme features such as the peacock's tail, relative virulence of parasites, and much more besides. Without the theory of evolution, it would still be possible to know much about biology, but not to understand it.

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This explanatory framework is useful in a practical sense. First, a unified theory is easier to learn, because the facts connect together rather than being so many isolated bits of trivia. Second, having a theory makes it possible to see gaps in the theory, suggesting productive areas for new research.

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2.Evolutionary theory has been put to practical use in several areas (Futuyma 1995; Bull and Wichman 2001). For example:
Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).
Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).
Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).
Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction (Sutherland 2002).

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Evolutionary theory is being applied to and has potential applications in may other areas, from evaluating the threats of genetically modified crops to human psychology. Additional applications are sure to come.

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3.Phylogenetic analysis, which uses the evolutionary principle of common descent, has proven its usefulness:
Tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery (Branca 2002; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).
Phylogenetic analysis is a standard part of epidemiology, since it allows the identification of disease reservoirs and sometimes the tracking of step-by-step transmission of disease. For example, phylogenetic analysis confirmed that a Florida dentist was infecting his patients with HIV, that HIV-1 and HIV-2 were transmitted to humans from chimpanzees and mangabey monkeys in the twentieth century, and, when polio was being eradicated from the Americas, that new cases were not coming from hidden reservoirs (Bull and Wichman 2001). It was used in 2002 to help convict a man of intentionally infecting someone with HIV (Vogel 1998). The same principle can be used to trace the source of bioweapons (Cummings and Relman 2002).
Phylogenetic analysis to track the diversity of a pathogen can be used to select an appropriate vaccine for a particular region (Gaschen et al. 2002).
Ribotyping is a technique for identifying an organism or at least finding its closest known relative by mapping its ribosomal RNA onto the tree of life. It can be used even when the organisms cannot be cultured or recognized by other methods. Ribotyping and other genotyping methods have been used to find previously unknown infectious agents of human disease (Bull and Wichman 2001; Relman 1999).
Phylogenetic analysis helps in determining protein folds, since proteins diverging from a common ancestor tend to conserve their folds (Benner 2001).

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4.Directed evolution allows the "breeding" of molecules or molecular pathways to create or enhance products, including:
enzymes (Arnold 2001)
pigments (Arnold 2001)
antibiotics
flavors
biopolymers
bacterial strains to decompose hazardous materials.
Directed evolution can also be used to study the folding and function of natural enzymes (Taylor et al. 2001).

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5.The evolutionary principles of natural selection, variation, and recombination are the basis for genetic algorithms, an engineering technique that has many practical applications, including aerospace engineering, architecture, astrophysics, data mining, drug discovery and design, electrical engineering, finance, geophysics, materials engineering, military strategy, pattern recognition, robotics, scheduling, and systems engineering (Marczyk 2004).

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6. Tools developed for evolutionary science have been put to other uses. For example:
Many statistical techniques, including analysis of variance and linear regression, were developed by evolutionary biologists, especially Ronald Fisher and Karl Pearson. These statistical techniques have much wider application today.
The same techniques of phylogenetic analysis developed for biology can also trace the history of multiple copies of a manuscript (Barbrook et al. 1998; Howe et al. 2001) and the history of languages (Dunn et al. 2005).

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7. Good science need not have any application beyond satisfying curiosity. Much of astronomy, geology, paleontology, natural history, and other sciences have no practical application. For many people, knowledge is a worthy end in itself.

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8. Science with little or no application now may find application in the future, especially as the field matures and our knowledge of it becomes more complete. Practical applications are often built upon ideas that did not look applicable originally. Furthermore, advances in one area of science can help illuminate other areas. Evolution provides a framework for biology, a framework which can support other useful biological advances.

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9. Anti-evolutionary ideas have been around for millennia and have not yet contributed anything with any practical application.

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A few posts ago you also claimed that beneficial mutations are impossible. I gave you the recent example of the Peppered Moth's beneficial gene mutation. Are you now content?

aka facts you apparently need to deny in order to keep hold if your silly beliefs.However, it really doesn't matter, regardless of all those uses - which you denied could be produced - knowledge is useful for its own sake.And you haven't yet produced the practical uses of your imagined belief system.No response yet to the peppered moth proof of beneficial mutation either. You are hiding away aren't you. Facts just too hard for you to look?

This is an indefensible position. You have been shown beneficial mutations. You might as well deny the sky.

You are in no position to describe a geneticist's analysis of an organism's genome as 'iffy'. You are simply denying peer reviewed research from a position of total ignorance.That aside, you say there are no beneficial mutations. Just one would prove you wrong. You've been shown to be factually wrong.Flat denial of fact just demonstrates how ludicrously wrong you are and how incapable you are of accepting factual evidence.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Ffs Faith. How many times??Here's the peppered moth mutation - found after years of work. This is real research, properly published and reviewed science. The link is to a layman's article but you can get the actual reseach paper if you think you're up to it.Famous peppered moth's dark secret revealed - BBC News

No Faith, I gave you ONE example of a beneficial mutation. It identifies the actual gene, its effect, its date and the selection mechanism. It's an evolutionary slam dunk explaining an iconic example of the mechanism for change - mutation - and the mechanism for the selection of it - pollution and bird predation.You can flat out deny it - and of course you will - but it's there Faith; the thing you say can't exist, exists. All you have to do is read the papers.Ignore and complain, hope for alternate solutions, do whatever you need to do. But now you know that beneficial mutations occur and every time you say they can't or don't I'm going to call you on it.Prove the paper wrong or stop staying it.

This is your normal tactic Faith. You put it to one side with an excuse, then you never read it. This is not the first time you've been shown this, or the second. Take your time - but just do it. Or stop pretending and admit that you can't and you won't. I've given you the outline. I've given you the layman's story link and I've give you the paper. We'll be here again in 3 month's time won't we? One example is all that's needed to demonstrate that your claim that beneficial mutations can't and don't occur. I've shown you the black swan.You can't escape it Faith.

There's your excuse. Hang on to it.Yes, Faith, it's important. So important it made Nature. It's the bloody peppered moth for Christ sake. A poster child for evolution. It shows the actual mutation - do you have any idea how difficult that was? (That's rhetorical.) Ok, is that an admission that beneficial mutations can and do occur?

Yes, Faith, it's still a moth.What it proves, as you now accept, is that mutations happen and that in the correct enviromental conditions they are selected for and create a change in the population that allows it to survive.That's all the components of evolution observed and proven to exist. With the actual genes that mutated identified.That's descent with modification and survival of the fittest on a stick. It's the smoking gun.

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Once there was a final shortlist of 87 DNA differences between the black and pale lab moths, he and his colleagues tested whether each variation, one by one, was present in the wider variety of white moths found in the wild.
"After a long time we eventually managed to get down to a single one, which then had to be the causal mutation. To our surprise, it also turned out to be a rather unusual type of mutation."
The carbonaria mutation was in fact a "jumping" piece of DNA, called a transposon, which had inserted itself into a gene called cortex.
These odd sequences more often have a damaging effect when they disrupt an existing gene. But for one embryonic moth in the early 19th Century, when these extra 9,000 bases landed in its cortex gene, they were in fact the secret to success.
Exactly how the mutation causes black colouring remains a mystery; cortex is not a gene with any known role in pigmentation.

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Clever of you to spot that.

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The carbonaria mutation was in fact a "jumping" piece of DNA, called a transposon, which had inserted itself into a gene called cortex.

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Really, well done again!

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These odd sequences more often have a damaging effect when they disrupt an existing gene. But for one embryonic moth in the early 19th Century, when these extra 9,000 bases landed in its cortex gene, they were in fact the secret to success.

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The mutation obviously has to have a survival advantage to be called beneficial. If the environment hadn't changed, the mutation would have harmed the moth by making it stand out against its background. The moth adapted to a change in its enviroment with a genetic change. That descent with modification, fittness and survival.And that's evolution.

It proves the process, the mechanism and the cause of change in a species, confirms descent with modification and a selection mechanism. That's all I suppose. Just all of it. You really are quite remarkable. What do you think this statement is?

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This focussed their attention on a stretch of the moth genome containing 400,000 bases, the individual links in the chain of DNA.
"We knew that within that 400,000 bases, there was some sequence that had to... cause the actual difference between the black type and the typical type," Dr Saccheri explained.
"So we went about an excruciatingly tedious process of identifying every single difference between the two types."

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Once there was a final shortlist of 87 DNA differences between the black and pale lab moths, he and his colleagues tested whether each variation, one by one, was present in the wider variety of white moths found in the wild.
"After a long time we eventually managed to get down to a single one, which then had to be the causal mutation. To our surprise, it also turned out to be a rather unusual type of mutation."
The carbonaria mutation was in fact a "jumping" piece of DNA, called a transposon, which had inserted itself into a gene called cortex.
These odd sequences more often have a damaging effect when they disrupt an existing gene. But for one embryonic moth in the early 19th Century, when these extra 9,000 bases landed in its cortex gene, they were in fact the secret to success.

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They found a a gentic mutation Faith, a mutation that changed the moth's colour. NOT something that existed before but was selected for.

It's a fucking mutation. What on earth do you think a mutation is?

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The carbonaria mutation was in fact a "jumping" piece of DNA, called a transposon, which had inserted itself into a gene called cortex......Exactly how the mutation causes black colouring remains a mystery; cortex is not a gene with any known role in pigmentation..... A close look at the stretches right next to the cortex mutation showed very little scrambling; this was a recent event.

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You live in your own little bubble don't you? A reality distortion field.If a scientist that's been working with molecular genetics for tens of years publishes a paper in Nature that's peer reviewed by the best scientists in their field in the world tells me it's a mutation, then it's a fucking mutation until someone with similar qualifications says otherwise.Not an armchair creationist with absolutely zero knowledge or qualifications in the subject.Your arrogance has to be a sin.