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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Faith
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Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 346 of 525 (805765)
04-20-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by PaulK
04-20-2017 3:37 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
in other words you picked a poor example because it supported your opinion. It is hardly "bias" to point that out or disagree.

Indeed it is bias, aimed at obscuring the point that ultimately evolution in the wild must eventually run out of genetic diversity just as traditional domestic breeding also does, through the inevitable series of selection processes, both natural selection and random selection by migration.

Side trips that create hybrid zones and reintroduce gene flow, as well as mutations that are assumed to reverse the losses but couldn't possibly,* just distract from and obscure the ultimate effect.

==========================
*if only because they don't occur frequently enough for that purpose, let alone the fact that most of them are not beneficial anyway, even if there is an occasional beneficial one which I strongly dispute,

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by PaulK, posted 04-20-2017 3:37 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-20-2017 3:52 PM Faith has responded
 Message 349 by PaulK, posted 04-20-2017 4:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 350 by Taq, posted 04-20-2017 4:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11251
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 347 of 525 (805766)
04-20-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:48 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
the point that ultimately evolution in the wild must eventually run out of genetic diversity just as traditional domestic breeding also does

That point is not true though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 348 of 525 (805769)
04-20-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by New Cat's Eye
04-20-2017 3:52 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
Oh yes it is. Shall we do a few rounds of no-it-isn't-yes-it-is?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-20-2017 3:52 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by jar, posted 04-20-2017 4:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 12597
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 349 of 525 (805770)
04-20-2017 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:48 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
quote:

Indeed it is bias, aimed at obscuring the point that ultimately evolution in the wild must eventually run out of genetic diversity just as traditional domestic breeding also does, through the inevitable series of selection processes, both natural selection and random selection by migration.

Pointing out that the evidence does not support your assertion is hardly obscuring the point. Nor is disagreeing with your opinion adequate to support an accusation of bias.

quote:

Side trips that create hybrid zones and reintroduce gene flow, as well as mutations that are assumed to reverse the losses but couldn't possibly,* just distract from and obscure the ultimate effect.

And again you are simply passing off your opinions as facts. You certainly do not know that mutations do not occur frequently enough to offset the effects of selection - that is simply something you made up.

And I would suggest that disputing facts is rather a clear indication of bias.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
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Posts: 6098
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 350 of 525 (805772)
04-20-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:48 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
Faith writes:

Indeed it is bias, aimed at obscuring the point that ultimately evolution in the wild must eventually run out of genetic diversity

Mutations produce new genetic diversity. For example, each human is born with about 50 new mutations. For a diploid genome of 6 billion bases and 3 possible substitutions at each position, that comes to 18 billion possible mutations. At 50 mutations per person, it only takes 360 million births to get every possible substitution mutation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 9456
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 351 of 525 (805775)
04-20-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:00 PM


Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you are talking about?

You are the one who introduced the second law of thermodynamics to this topic, and the one who made bogus authoritative statements about it not existing before the fall. Why don't you explain the role of the second law in things like death, metabolism, digestion, breathing, etc. to the rest of us?

I don't have to enlighten "us". Most participants are well aware of the issues.

I will note that CMI specifically gives reasons not to use this particular argument. Maybe they know something you don't?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
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Posts: 28694
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 352 of 525 (805776)
04-20-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:58 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
Faith writes:

Oh yes it is. Shall we do a few rounds of no-it-isn't-yes-it-is?

You can do that if you want, the rest of us will simply point out that the process of evolution has been going on her on Earth for billions of years with no indication of it slowing or stopping.

You can try playground games, the rest of us will simply point to the facts and reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
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Posts: 1298
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 353 of 525 (805790)
04-20-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Faith
04-20-2017 4:14 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
I don't have time right now to get into my own project, but when I can I will describe a bit about what I am doing and how the ToE provides the framework for asking questions and finding answers to those questions. As I said, my project is not really deep, it's rather simple and I expect that you will just dismiss it as working just as well under your model.

In any case, let me offer you a working model as I see it:

I commend you on laying out your model, but I wouldn't call it "working" just yet. To illustrate, let me give you a real problem we are working on in our lab (this is not my project, but I will be involved in it somewhat).

Cercospora beticola is a fungal pathogen that infects sugar beet leaves and causes a leaf spot. It can cause defoliation and lead to significant yield loss. The fungus is only known in its anamorphic state (asexual or vegetative growth and reproduction) there is no known teleomorph (sexual stage). However, many populations have equal proportions of mating types (there are 2 mating types and both need to be present to induce teleomorph formation). Equal proportion of mating types is evidence that there is sexual recombination occurring. The teleomorph has never been found on sugar beets even though it has been look for extensively, so if it does exist, it must have an alternate host.

So, using your model, how would you approach the problem of discovering what this alternate host would be? Be specific about how you would narrow down the search (this IS a needle in a haystack venture) and what predictions your model would produce.

Depends on what you want to do in your job of course, but I would think something along these lines should be a sufficient guide.

It's easy to propose things like this when you don't have to actually test them. I have to apply things I have learned and get results. There is a big difference.

So I am asking you to do this thought experiment using just your ideas you have proposed just to see what it's like.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 4:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 6:09 PM herebedragons has responded
 Message 355 by CRR, posted 04-20-2017 6:32 PM herebedragons has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 354 of 525 (805794)
04-20-2017 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by herebedragons
04-20-2017 5:30 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
It could be fun to try to do this experiment except I didn't intend my model to be anything other than evidence that there could BE another model, since you seemed to be saying the ToE is all there is. There are probably many other points I'd eventually add to mine, which was pretty much off the top of my head.

I'm not completely sure what your project is trying to do. You want to find the host of this teleomorph, which is related to the fungus that eats beet leaves though it doesn't eat beet leaves itself. Presumably your ultimate aim is to stop the asexual fungus from eating the beet leaves, but how knowing the habits of this sexually reproducing type will help with that, since it doesn't eat beet leaves, is escaping me.

And I can't imagine how the ToE would give you a lead on this either.

I suppose I'd start by looking for other hosts that have the most in common with beet leaves, genetically perhaps or possibly by other features. I don't think it's clear enough what I'm trying to accomplish however. If anything more comes to me I'll post it later.

Second thought: I need to understand better what this creature really is. It has both sexual and asexual forms, but apparently intimately genetically related? So a start at the project could be investigating its reproductive habits more closely?

None of this so far suggests anything crucially about your ToE model or mine either.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by herebedragons, posted 04-20-2017 5:30 PM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by herebedragons, posted 04-20-2017 8:06 PM Faith has responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 140
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 355 of 525 (805795)
04-20-2017 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by herebedragons
04-20-2017 5:30 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
My thought on this is that we initially expect organisms to behave like similar organisms. Similar fungi to Cercospora beticola have a teleomorph so initially we expect this one to have a teleomorph.

Whether we find it or not we will probably learn something new about this organism.

There is no need to invoke the theory of evolution for common sense predictions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by herebedragons, posted 04-20-2017 5:30 PM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 6:37 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 359 by herebedragons, posted 04-20-2017 8:21 PM CRR has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 356 of 525 (805796)
04-20-2017 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by CRR
04-20-2017 6:32 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
So we're looking for the teleomorph of this beet-leaf-eating fungus?

Why?

I'm glad someone else will also be thinking about this. Yahoo!

There is no need to invoke the theory of evolution for common sense predictions.

That's certainly what I'd expect. HBD thinks otherwise. I guess we'll find out what he has in mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by CRR, posted 04-20-2017 6:32 PM CRR has not yet responded

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 357 of 525 (805800)
04-20-2017 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
04-20-2017 6:09 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
And I can't imagine how the ToE would give you a lead on this either.

I'm not asking you to imagine that, I am asking how you would approach a real problem such as this using your model.

None of this so far suggests anything crucially about your ToE model or mine either.

This isn't really a matter of there being a right or wrong answer, it's just to get you to think about the framework involved when you approach a simple problem. This is really a fairly simple example, its not deeply complicated (it is a needle in a haystack situation, though). The approach I would take is fairly straight forward, but there are some underlying assumptions and hypotheses that are based on the model or framework I am using and I am just asking that you use your model to inform your assumptions and hypotheses.

I'm not completely sure what your project is trying to do. You want to find the host of this teleomorph, which is related to the fungus that eats beet leaves though it doesn't eat beet leaves itself.

Fungi are strange organisms to be sure. The anamorph (asexual) and teleomorph (sexual) are the same organism, just different life stages and those life stages can have different hosts that they grow on.

Here is an image of a generalized fungal life cycle for reference:

(teleomorph on the left; anamorph on the right)

Typically when you think of fungi you picture the mushroom stage, but that is only a small part of the life cycle.

Presumably your ultimate aim is to stop the asexual fungus from eating the beet leaves, but how knowing the habits of this sexually reproducing type will help with that, since it doesn't eat beet leaves, is escaping me.

The question involves the source of inoculum (the spores or structures that cause infection). We have infections in the field that are not always consistent with asexual spore production, but seem to be more like what we would expect with the sexual spores. Without going into too much more detail, we want to know where the inoculum is coming from.

I don't think its necessary to know much more about the system (although fungi are fascinating ). The main point is just to think about how you would apply your model to a real situation and what your underlying assumptions are and how you justify those assumptions.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 6:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 8:14 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 371 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:50 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24487
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 358 of 525 (805804)
04-20-2017 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by herebedragons
04-20-2017 8:06 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
I have no reason at all to bring in anything from my model. As CRR said this is a practical matter. What you are doing is setting up some kind of impossible situation even if you don't mean to.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by herebedragons, posted 04-20-2017 8:06 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1298
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 359 of 525 (805806)
04-20-2017 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by CRR
04-20-2017 6:32 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
There is no need to invoke the theory of evolution for common sense predictions.

Common sense is not really a scientific strategy, is it? Things that seem obvious at first turn out to be not so obvious after all. Organisms that we once thought were closely related are now found to be not so. In fact, fungi are a really great example of this; Fungi used to be included in the kingdom Plantae, but now we find out they are more like animals than plants. So, "common sense" is not that great of a strategy.

Besides, I did not "invoke" the ToE. I asked Faith to apply her proposed theory to the problem.

My thought on this is that we initially expect organisms to behave like similar organisms.

So why do you expect this and how would you determine what "similar organisms" are?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by CRR, posted 04-20-2017 6:32 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by CRR, posted 04-20-2017 10:07 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15803
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 360 of 525 (805810)
04-20-2017 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:32 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
Accuracy ISN'T my intent ...

We noticed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 12:44 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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