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Author Topic:   Kenneth R. Miller - Finding Darwin's God
Percy
Member
Posts: 17865
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 46 of 94 (145097)
09-27-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Minnemooseus
09-27-2004 1:42 PM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
I'm not so sure. I'd like to see an unequivocal statement from Miller, especially since near the end of the article he says, "In biological terms, evolution is the only way a Creator could have made us the creatures we are."

--Percy


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 Message 47 by MrHambre, posted 09-27-2004 3:45 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 47 of 94 (145107)
09-27-2004 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
09-27-2004 3:07 PM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
If 'theistic evolutionist' just means someone who believes in God but affirms evolution, I'd say Miller qualifies. But he doesn't believe in any spirit-guided evolutionary process, according to his writing.

I read Miller's book, but I don't own a copy of it and can't quote the relevant passages. I recall he wasn't in league with those who say "evolution is God's way of creating," because as a cell biologist he couldn't look at the universe as anything other than self-sustaining. A God who creates through a process whereby the vast majority of his species go extinct, and precarious environmental fitness is paid for by an immense amount of death and waste, is obviously unworthy of worship. Miller claims that when quantum indeterminacy put Newton's clockwork universe to rest, it changed the rules for both believers and atheists: no longer could we say that all things were predetermined in a domino cascade of cause-and-effect, but gone too was the notion that science could unlock any earthly mystery.

I'm not a believer, so I don't know how Miller can live with this materialistic conception of the universe and still believe in a loving God. However, his appreciation of the philosophical use of the Darwinian evolutionary mechanism is ingenious: this is the only way believers can say God creates but has no purpose or intent in mind, because the process that actually does the work is so open-ended and versatile.

regards,
Esteban Hambre


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 48 of 94 (145144)
09-27-2004 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by MrHambre
09-27-2004 3:45 PM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
One characteristic of GOD as I see it is that GOD has no beginning or end. GOD is, has been, and will be. That could get very boring. Might not GOD set up a simulation with a given set of beginning states and a set of rules, simply to watch and see how it all turns out? Might not GOD be amazed and fascinated by what has happened, is happening and will happen in the future in this Universe?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 49 of 94 (145324)
09-28-2004 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
09-27-2004 6:01 PM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
jar,

I'm not a believer. I already said I was impressed by Miller's expertise in exposing the way Dawkins and Dennett (both of whose work I greatly admire) often lack the scientific objectivity they so highly tout. However, that's a far cry from playing the sort of religious parlor game you suggest in your post. Typing the word God in upper-case letters doesn't make it any more comprehensible an idea. And ascribing the characteristics of a bored tinkerer to the idea doesn't do it much justice either.

regards,
Esteban Hambre


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 Message 50 by Bugtracker, posted 12-16-2004 5:28 AM MrHambre has not yet responded

    
Bugtracker
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 94 (168823)
12-16-2004 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by MrHambre
09-28-2004 9:53 AM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
I am new to this board, and this is my first post. More than likely no one will read it since it appears this thread ended quite awhile ago. But I guess I'll try and see what happens:

I believe Millers book serves a vital purpose for opening up lines of communication between scientists and creationists.

I have had dozens of conversations and email discussions with friends who are extremely intelligent and yet for some bizarre reason cannot except evolutionary principles. I have been fortunate on a couple of occasions to introduce them to Miller, and it allowed us to have much more fruitful conversations.

The reason for this is that Miller creates a safe haven for those who believe in the supernatural. because it allows them to see that evolution can coexixt quite nicely in thier universe.

Anyway, as I said this is my first post, so I think I'll end it here and see what happens!


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 Message 49 by MrHambre, posted 09-28-2004 9:53 AM MrHambre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Sylas, posted 12-16-2004 6:56 AM Bugtracker has not yet responded
 Message 52 by AdminNosy, posted 12-16-2004 10:41 AM Bugtracker has responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3209 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 51 of 94 (168836)
12-16-2004 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Bugtracker
12-16-2004 5:28 AM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
Bugtracker writes:

I am new to this board, and this is my first post. More than likely no one will read it since it appears this thread ended quite awhile ago. But I guess I'll try and see what happens:

Welcome! It is an interesting topic; and by adding a post you have "bumped" it to the top of the list of thread with new posts.

I have had dozens of conversations and email discussions with friends who are extremely intelligent and yet for some bizarre reason cannot except evolutionary principles. I have been fortunate on a couple of occasions to introduce them to Miller, and it allowed us to have much more fruitful conversations.

The reason for this is that Miller creates a safe haven for those who believe in the supernatural. because it allows them to see that evolution can coexixt quite nicely in thier universe.

I think you are right. Miller seems to present a view of God's divine creative activity as something continuous, expressed throughout time in sustaining of the natural world. Miller thus does not need to modify or deny any findings of conventional evolutionary biology, but sees it as a study of the natural world, created and sustained by God.

Whether Miller himself describes this as "theistic evolution" I do not know; but he is often described by others in those terms. A more detailed view of his theological perspective is available at Theological Implications of an Evolving Creation. In this essay, Miller endorses the term continuous creationist as expressing his view. Here is an extract:

The term "continuous creationist" has been used by both Wilcox and Moltmann as a useful label for a fully theistic view of creation involving a long uninterrupted creative history. According to this view God is continuously active in His creation through the processes that we investigate with our sciences.

Miller credits this term to:
Wilcox, David L., 1986, A taxonomy of Creation, Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation 38, p.244-250;
Moltmann, Jürgen, 1981, God in Creation, Harper & Row.

Cheers -- Sylas


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 Message 50 by Bugtracker, posted 12-16-2004 5:28 AM Bugtracker has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Andya Primanda, posted 12-23-2004 2:47 PM Sylas has responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 52 of 94 (168879)
12-16-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Bugtracker
12-16-2004 5:28 AM


W e l c o m e !
Welcocme to EvC, Bug.

See you did get noticed. Just be careful what you say, since it will all get noticed.

Enjoy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Bugtracker, posted 12-16-2004 5:28 AM Bugtracker has responded

Replies to this message:
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Bugtracker
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 94 (168960)
12-16-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by AdminNosy
12-16-2004 10:41 AM


Re: W e l c o m e
LOL!

Thanks for the welcome Sylas and Nosy. Sure is a wealth of information on this site, and tons of knowledgable people to share information with! Way more knowlegable than me..unliklely I would tempt to take anybody head on, but it's nice to know that a place such as this exists for gathering information and asking questions.

BTW, just by way of introduction, I am a clinical microbiologist, hence the choice of username. The job allows very little time for any independent research,so I basically just watch the bugs grow and than try to figure out the best way to kill them!

One thing I am curious about though is how the copying quotes function operates. I'm sure you've probably explained it a million times and won't ask you to repeat it, but if you could just direct me to where I can find out that would be great.

Again, thanks for the warm welcome!

This message has been edited by Bugtracker, 12-16-2004 02:32 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by AdminNosy, posted 12-16-2004 10:41 AM AdminNosy has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 55 by Sylas, posted 12-16-2004 10:47 PM Bugtracker has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 54 of 94 (168970)
12-16-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Bugtracker
12-16-2004 2:31 PM


Copying quotes
copy and paste just like most programs

Then when you are editing there is a UBB Code is ON link to the left which tells you how to format your post.

Or, as noted, use the raw text button to see how someone else did it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Bugtracker, posted 12-16-2004 2:31 PM Bugtracker has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3209 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 55 of 94 (169185)
12-16-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Bugtracker
12-16-2004 2:31 PM


Re: W e l c o m e
Bugtracker writes:

One thing I am curious about though is how the copying quotes function operates. I'm sure you've probably explained it a million times and won't ask you to repeat it, but if you could just direct me to where I can find out that would be great.

Check out Message 1 for a collections of hints. Use the raw text button at the bottom of any post to see how others format things.

Cheers -- Sylas


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 Message 53 by Bugtracker, posted 12-16-2004 2:31 PM Bugtracker has not yet responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 94 (171160)
12-23-2004 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Sylas
12-16-2004 6:56 AM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
quote:
Whether Miller himself describes this as "theistic evolution" I do not know; but he is often described by others in those terms. A more detailed view of his theological perspective is available at Theological Implications of an Evolving Creation. In this essay, Miller endorses the term continuous creationist as expressing his view. Here is an extract:

The term "continuous creationist" has been used by both Wilcox and Moltmann as a useful label for a fully theistic view of creation involving a long uninterrupted creative history. According to this view God is continuously active in His creation through the processes that we investigate with our sciences.


Sorry Sylas... but that one is Keith Miller not Ken Miller of Finding Darwin's God fame.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Sylas, posted 12-16-2004 6:56 AM Sylas has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Sylas, posted 01-06-2005 1:23 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3209 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 57 of 94 (174289)
01-06-2005 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Andya Primanda
12-23-2004 2:47 PM


Re: Miller not a theistic evolutionist
Oops... thanks! I had a closer look. Keith Miller sounds like an interesting person. I had not heard of him previously.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Andya Primanda, posted 12-23-2004 2:47 PM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3668
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 58 of 94 (413678)
07-31-2007 10:01 PM


Ken Miller on Intelligent Design at YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

I've only watched the very beginning. The whole thing apparently runs almost 2 hours.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Change ID.


    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3668
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 59 of 94 (420234)
09-06-2007 11:42 PM


Kenneth Miller / Phillip Johnson debate
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/odyssey/debate/index.html

Giving credit where credit is due, I found the above via http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionVCreation/evcdebatesandcourtcases.msnw

In general, that site has quite a repository of resources. See the column at the left of the page.

Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 09-07-2007 6:38 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17865
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 60 of 94 (420269)
09-07-2007 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Minnemooseus
09-06-2007 11:42 PM


Re: Kenneth Miller / Phillip Johnson debate
These are probably worth reposting at Science Programs on Radio, TV and Internet.

AbE: Oh, never mind about the 2nd one, I didn't realize it was a debate via letters.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Reverse course.

Edited by Percy, : Clarify.


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 Message 59 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-06-2007 11:42 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
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