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Author Topic:   Evolution on Trial by Bill Whitehouse
Moe
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 42 (351576)
09-23-2006 11:43 AM



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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 42 (351607)
09-23-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Moe
09-23-2006 11:43 AM


A bit thin
It's nice to have new books pointed out. However, it is best if you offer your own opinions on the book and some discussion of it's contents.
Thanks for the input though.
And a big welcome to EvC.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 3 of 42 (351608)
09-23-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Moe
09-23-2006 11:43 AM


Hi moe, welcome to EvCForum.
Have you read the book? I'd be interested to hear your take on it. Much of the book is available free on-line here. Whitehouse himself seems to be an interesting character, but much of his writing deals with "novelized" accounts of Sufi mysticism and spirituality. Hard to see (without reading the thing in its entirety) what he's on about. Love to hear your ideas, or anyone's perspective on the book.
Edited by Quetzal, : I'm really having problems with ubb code today

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 42 (351763)
09-24-2006 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
09-23-2006 2:12 PM


Well, his introduction contains lots of mistakes, and the rest of the book consists of alternately putting two cases (as in a trial, hence the title) one of which he clearly doesn't understand.
Oh, that's useful.
I have a sudden urge to reread the transcript of the Dover Pandas Trial. That had real scientists in it, and actually happened; and as such is more interesting than a wish-fulfillment fantasy.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 10:25 AM Dr Adequate has replied
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Moe
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 42 (351767)
09-24-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
09-24-2006 9:19 AM


Thank you for the welcome! I am reading the book right now and may have some comments soon. I'm reading some of the postings here in this forum right now.
But this comes from Whitehouse's introduction:
"More specifically, if an individual cannot grasp the point-counterpoint of the discussion in this E-Book, then, one is not in a conceptual position to honestly argue either for, or against, evolutionary theory. Whatever one might have to say on such issues will be entirely derived from the opinions of others - opinions that may, or may not, be true and concerning which one will have no direct, personal understanding, knowledge or insight."
I have completely read The Chaco Canyon Tapes, a novel from which Evolution on Trial was taken out of due to its complexity. Many people aren't interested enough in these issues to wade through dense material. We'll soon see if I'm one of those who should stick to less demanding material. I especially find reading e-books online difficult, so I'm reading the actual book now.
I'll keep you posted. And thanks again for the welcome.
Moe

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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Quetzal, posted 09-24-2006 12:16 PM Moe has replied
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2006 5:18 PM Moe has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 6 of 42 (351786)
09-24-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Moe
09-24-2006 10:25 AM


"More specifically, if an individual cannot grasp the point-counterpoint of the discussion in this E-Book, then, one is not in a conceptual position to honestly argue either for, or against, evolutionary theory. Whatever one might have to say on such issues will be entirely derived from the opinions of others - opinions that may, or may not, be true and concerning which one will have no direct, personal understanding, knowledge or insight."
I read that in his introduction as well. I'm always a bit concerned when I encounter the rhetorical equivalent of "if you don't agree with me, you're too stupid to understand the argument". That and his conflation of abiogenesis with evolution doesn't bode well for the rest of the book. I'll be curious to see if he does any better in presenting the pro- vs. con- arguments in detail. The skim I did of the rest (admittedly superficial), seems to present his protagonist Corrigan as a poor, innocent teacher who's only "crime" was to teach the controversy. Not a good thing if the author is claiming that all he wants to do is give everyone an understanding of the issue.

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Replies to this message:
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Moe
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 42 (351800)
09-24-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Quetzal
09-24-2006 12:16 PM


You have read more into that quote than I see in it. I don't see anywhere where he is saying if you don't agree with me this or that. Wasn't Scopes portrayed as just a simple, sincere, honest teacher of biology? The fact that he is portrayed this way has nothing to say about the merits of the case. So even if Corrigan is being portrayed in the novel as a poor, innocent teacher whose only crime was to go astray of the power structure, this really has nothing to do with the substantive issues, and, as such, constitutes something of a fossilized red herring which misdirects attention away from the actual evidential issues. It is a novel, after all.
Moe

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 42 (351828)
09-24-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
09-24-2006 9:19 AM


Well, his introduction contains lots of mistakes,....
What's more, he's every bit as accurate with the law as he is with the science.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

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 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2006 9:19 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

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 Message 9 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:18 PM subbie has replied

  
Moe
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 42 (351832)
09-24-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by subbie
09-24-2006 4:52 PM


Whose mistakes?
Hi Subbie,
What mistakes are made about that law? I've spent 23 years in courtrooms. Did you read this closely enough to understand it is a moot court? Please cite examples of mistakes, if you have the time. Otherwise, I will assume that maybe in this particular instance you have made the mistakes.
Moe

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 42 (351833)
09-24-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Moe
09-24-2006 10:25 AM


Thank you for the welcome! I am reading the book right now and may have some comments soon. I'm reading some of the postings here in this forum right now.
But this comes from Whitehouse's introduction:
"More specifically, if an individual cannot grasp the point-counterpoint of the discussion in this E-Book, then, one is not in a conceptual position to honestly argue either for, or against, evolutionary theory. Whatever one might have to say on such issues will be entirely derived from the opinions of others - opinions that may, or may not, be true and concerning which one will have no direct, personal understanding, knowledge or insight."
Well, that's what he says in his introuduction. This is what he says while he's swanking about about how smart he is.
The fact is that in his introduction he just gets evolution wrong, and his book is doomed from that point onwards.
One cannot discuss an idea until one understands it.

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 Message 5 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 10:25 AM Moe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Moe
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 42 (351834)
09-24-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
09-24-2006 5:18 PM


I'm here to learn. How does he "get evolution wrong"? Please be specific or I will assume you are mistaken.
Moe

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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2006 5:28 PM Moe has replied
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 42 (351837)
09-24-2006 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Moe
09-24-2006 5:23 PM


Please read the introduction or I shall assume that you are lazy.

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 Message 11 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:23 PM Moe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 13 of 42 (351839)
09-24-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Moe
09-24-2006 1:04 PM


You have read more into that quote than I see in it. I don't see anywhere where he is saying if you don't agree with me this or that. Wasn't Scopes portrayed as just a simple, sincere, honest teacher of biology?
It is of course possible I'm reading too much into it, but that was I'm afraid the initial impression I got when I read it. And indeed, Scopes was protrayed "as an innocent teacher", even though found guilty ultimately. It is quite obvious that Whitehouse is using that intentionally - sort of an "anti-Scopes".
I'm not trying to pooh-pooh the book - I haven't read the whole thing, obviously. Just wanted to get some of my initial impressions out. I'm interested to hear what you think about it, whether the presentations are in fact even-handed, and what particular arguments/evidence Yardley presents.

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 Message 7 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 1:04 PM Moe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:44 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Moe
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 42 (351841)
09-24-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
09-24-2006 5:28 PM


I have read the introduction. You are evading the question now.
I'm just asking you to be specific. If you can't be or won't be, I will assume you are mistaken.
Moe

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 42 (351843)
09-24-2006 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Moe
09-24-2006 5:33 PM


You are now asking me to do your homework for you.
Ordinarily, I should tell you to get up off your lazy arse and do it yourself.
But I do have a few spare minutes, so I'll help you out.
You will find that people are more likely to do this if you say "please".
Wait.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 5:33 PM Moe has replied

Replies to this message:
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