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Author
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Topic: Atlas Shrugged
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portmaster1000
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 117 (185180)
02-14-2005 3:16 PM
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Topic for Book Nook Just finished reading this classic by Ayn Rand. I enjoyed it even though some parts were tedious (especially some of the longer diatribes) and most of the "irrational" characters were absurdly so. Reminds me of some of Robert Heinlein's books in it's attitude toward BIG government. The main point I took away was why Capitalism works better than Communism. A system that plays toward self interests reflects the reality of being human. Our efforts must benefit ourselves or we have no incentive to "put forth the effort." Capitalism works when mutual benefit occurs or as the book puts it, "when value is exchanged for value." The book makes lots of points about ideas discussed on this forum. It's definitely worth the read whether you agree with the severe rational/logic views of the book or not. Anyone else out there read it? PM1K
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by Percy, posted 02-14-2005 4:10 PM | | portmaster1000 has not replied | | | Message 5 by Phat, posted 02-14-2005 5:01 PM | | portmaster1000 has replied | | | Message 81 by custard, posted 02-23-2005 6:00 PM | | portmaster1000 has not replied |
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: 09-26-2002
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Message 2 of 117 (185203)
02-14-2005 3:43 PM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum. Note by edit: "Book Nook" topics can be directly created in that forum. They do not have to go through the "Proposed New Topics" procedure. Adminnemooseus This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-14-2005 15:46 AM
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Yes, I've read all Rand's major books. Read The Fountainhead next. It was also a movie about 40 years ago, you can probably rent it at BlockBuster, and you can still catch it on TV. I watched it a few years ago after telling my TiVo to pick it up. It took a few months, but it eventually was shown by one of the stations. --Percy
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 4 of 117 (185217)
02-14-2005 4:13 PM
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Michael Shermer addresses the Rand cult of personality in his book Why People Believe Weird Things, the book that introduced me to the creationism situation.
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Phat
Member Posts: 18300 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Yeah, I read some of Rands stuff. Ayn Rand is a deep thinker! I disagree with her belief system...but I DO respect her intellect! NOTE:
"In proportion to the mental energy he spent, the man who creates a new invention receives but a small percentage of his value in terms of material payment, no matter what fortune he makes, no matter what millions he earns. But the man who works as a janitor in the factory producing that invention, receives an enormous payment in proportion to the mental effort that his job requires of him. And the same is true of all men between, on all levels of ambition and ability. The man at the top of the intellectual pyramid contributes the most to all those below him, but gets nothing except his material payment, receiving no intellectual bonus from others to add to the value of his time. The man at the bottom who, left to himself, would starve in his hopeless ineptitude, contributes nothing to those above him, but receives the bonus of all of their brains. Such is the nature of the 'competition' between the strong and the weak of the intellect. Such is the pattern of 'exploitation' for which you have damned the strong."
[Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged ] Smart! I disagree with her refusal to acknowledge God as a source of superior wisdom, however. NOTE:
"They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth. The mystics of spirit call it 'another dimension,' which consists of denying dimensions. The mystics of muscle call it 'the future,' which consists of denying the present. To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All their identifications consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say--and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge--God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out." [Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged ] She refuses Christian theism because it wipes out her right to disagree. I can respect that she has made her decision regarding her thought process and world view.
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 6 of 117 (185232)
02-14-2005 5:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
02-14-2005 5:01 PM
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Smart! If she's so smart, why aren't people lining up to be janitors? I find the idea that competition and the free market is inherently good for us all very specious. At best, we benefit as consumers from capitalism only as a side effect. If capitalists could profit without actually having to provide anything to the consumer, they're immediately do so. Which is exactly what we see happening, thanks to organizations like the MPAA, RIAA, and the massive convergence of corporate and government interests. Do you know what Wal-Mart just did? In exchange for paying millions, they now get 15 days warning from the Justice Department before they're investigated for any hiring or payroll misconduct. Shit, how much do I have to pay to the police to get advance notice of investigations against me?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Phat, posted 02-14-2005 5:01 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 7 of 117 (185255)
02-14-2005 5:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
02-14-2005 5:01 PM
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Good lord! people still read her stuff in the states? I'm amazing why she was taken seriously to start with (she had little or no impact in europe). Did she ever overcome the modified prisoner's Dilemma? Let me ask you a question and see how far we get: You are driving a car and decide to commit suicide, a young girl leaps out in front of you. What do you do? This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 14 February 2005 18:03 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Phat, posted 02-14-2005 5:01 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 8 of 117 (185262)
02-14-2005 6:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by CK
02-14-2005 5:57 PM
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quote:
Good lord! people still read her stuff in the states? I'm amazing why she was taken seriously to start with (she had little or no impact in europe).
Reports are the most important man in the States, Alan Greenspan, is a follower of Ayn Rand. People here can be infatuated with her work when they are adolescents, but usually grow out of it. I think they lose interest when they realize that rather than being a Randian independent thinker and hero, they would actually be considered one of the sheep. I do have one friend who still insists that he is an Ubermensch, but at least he reads Nietsche, the real deal, rather than Rand.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by CK, posted 02-14-2005 5:57 PM | | CK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by CK, posted 02-14-2005 6:13 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 9 of 117 (185269)
02-14-2005 6:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Chiroptera
02-14-2005 6:05 PM
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 02-14-2005 6:05 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 10 of 117 (185363)
02-14-2005 10:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by CK
02-14-2005 6:13 PM
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Damn! I was drinking tea when I read that comic and spurted scalding hot tea through my nose! Favorite quote: I only know how to pay people to create new alloys.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by CK, posted 02-14-2005 6:13 PM | | CK has not replied |
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 11 of 117 (185480)
02-15-2005 9:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by CK
02-14-2005 6:13 PM
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I like something I saw on a blog a couple weeks back: "Today would have been Ayn Rand's 100th birthday. In celebration, I'm going to bake a cake and then not share it with anybody."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by CK, posted 02-14-2005 6:13 PM | | CK has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by Phat, posted 02-15-2005 10:09 AM | | Dan Carroll has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18300 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Dan writes: "Today would have been Ayn Rand's 100th birthday. In celebration, I'm going to bake a cake and then not share it with anybody." Atlas shrugged and said, "What do I care? I'm on a diet anyway!" Seriously, though...I've never read an entire book of hers, so I don't have a complete grasp of her philosophy. Can I have just one small slice of that cake, Dan? Think: Communion!  BTW Contracycle wants you to bake a file into the cake so that we can break out of our capitalist chains! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-15-2005 08:12 AM
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 13 of 117 (185499)
02-15-2005 10:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
02-15-2005 10:09 AM
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I don't have a complete grasp of her philosophy. I'll sum it up for you. Think of Daffy Duck in the genie's cave, grabbing all the treasure he can and screaming, "MINEMINEMINEMINEMINE, ALL MINE!!!" There. Now you've pretty much got the gist of it.
Contracycle wants you to bake a file into the cake so that we can break out of our capitalist chains! I'll loan him a copy of Hutch Owen. It's pretty much the anti-Rand.
"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown On a backwards river, infidels shiver In the stench of belief And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late I'm over the rails and out of the race The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw ringing in my ears" -Beck
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Phat, posted 02-15-2005 10:09 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 14 of 117 (185507)
02-15-2005 10:35 AM
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I'm not myself interested in discussing or defending Ayn Rand's economic philosophy, but the characterizations I've seen in this thread thus far hardly seem accurate or fair. I last read Ayn Rand around 20 years ago, and I've thought little about her or her ideas in the interim, so I'm not the right person to be attempting a more accurate characterization of her views, but just to balance things out I'll give it a try. I think Rand promoted the view that people should be the soul possessors of the results of their physical and intellectual labors. The lesson of John Galt is not the pursuit of the ruthless accumulation of wealth at the expense of others, but that the selfish exploitation of other's labors makes us all poorer. Only by people maintaining ownership and control of what they produce can an economy increase in wealth. --Percy
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 15 of 117 (185521)
02-15-2005 10:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
02-15-2005 10:35 AM
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I think my description was punchier. And not just because it would be riotously funny to see Ayn Rand jumping around and yelling, "Hoo-hoo! Hoo-hoo! Hoo-hoo!" In all seriousness though, a good place for beginners to start reading up on Objectivism, both in Rand's own words and those of people writing about her philosophy (rather glowingly) would be with the Ayn Rand Institute.
This article is my personal favorite. (Although in fairness, it's not by Rand herself.)
"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown On a backwards river, infidels shiver In the stench of belief And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late I'm over the rails and out of the race The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw ringing in my ears" -Beck
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Percy, posted 02-15-2005 10:35 AM | | Percy has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by jar, posted 02-15-2005 11:25 AM | | Dan Carroll has not replied |
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