So, Why do we all hang out at the EVC?

I first discovered EvC a while back, simply because evolution is an interesting topic, and I was aware that there are still a lot of people out there that believe the Earth was created in 6 days, and Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden, etc etc. Sounded like that would be an interesting debate to follow so I went surfing and ended up here.I still hang around because there are a lot of intelligent people here who have a lot of interesting things to say. I don't post much, unless I feel I can add something useful to a discussion, or feel strongly about the particular subject being discussed. However, I do lurk and read a lot for the intellectual stimulation, especially when bored at work! I've also just this year started studying part-time for a science degree as a mature-age student. So I do learn some useful stuff here too.There's the old saying that in social situations you should never talk politics or religion. Often it's true because it can get ugly. Or try talking science and your often answered with a "huh?". This is all rather unfortunate because they are some of the most interesting things to discuss. Thankfully, all of these enjoy much attention here.I've learned some things about happenings elsewhere in the world that doesn't make the local news. For example, I first learned of the biology textbook controversy in Cobb County GA here on EvC. This grabbed my attention because my wife was living in Cobb when I first met her and I spent some time there, and it was quite a nice area. It was therefore somewhat disturbing to hear of that textbook situation, kinda brought the creationism issue a bit 'closer to home'.Some of my views have been changed, I used to have a generally low opinion of Christianity, but EvC has showed me that there are some Christians who are reasonable and intelligent. Unfortunately it's also showed a few who are extremely ignorant, and there are one or two people who I would actually consider offensive, but reasoned scientific debate usually shows peoples' true colours.I'm thinking I'll be hanging around EvC in the background, and sometimes the foreground, for a long time to come.

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On the 7th day, God was arrested.

Well, simply put, I "hang out" at EvC (which, in my case, involves about 98% lurking ) because it is arguably the best forum of its kind on the internet.I enjoy the thought-provoking discussions on EvC, and manage to learn something new nearly every time I visit. Not to mention the fact that there are some genuinely brilliant minds here. I frequently shake my head in disbelief, just trying to figure out how some of you people have had enough time, in a single life, to amass the educations you appear to have.Of course, the fact that several regular posters are actually practicing experts in their fields is one of the things that help to maintain this high quality, I think. Published material is all well and good, but things move forward quickly in science and, as a layman, you can never be sure how current your reading material is. So having a forum like this, with up-to-the-minute contributions (so to speak) by some of the very people at the forefront of such research, is quite handy, to say the least.To your specific questions... Depends what you mean. If by "side" you mean the whole side, then no, I doubt it. But if you mean individuals of a side, then yes, it happens all the time; usually behind the scenes, though.People will concede minor points, but I would imagine that it's pretty rare, in a public discussion/debate on any topic, for anyone to flat-out, openly admit that their opponent has convinced them that the side they were defending is wrong. It's not at all uncommon for people to admit that they were wrong about views they used to hold, but it doesn't seem to happen very often with regard to a point they're actually debating. That is, it seems quite rare for someone to argue a position, have it clearly demonstrated to be wrong, and actually concede that fact.My point, though, is that just because it's rare for someone to publicly admit to being wrong doesn't mean that they don't change their mind. EvC has played a part in my own changes of position on a few issues over the years. Well, in a manner of speaking, I suppose I do get a "kick" (of sorts) out of it.Actually, one of the things that gives me a kick is talking to people who are highly educated (and, in some cases, working) in the fields that I find most fascinating. There isn't really anyone in my day-to-day life that I can talk to about this stuff. Most people just look at me funny. Yes, indeed! Of course, in my case, simply gleaning what I can from the resident experts is usually challenge enough. Education. Nope, that's not for me. I'm friendly. Heh... so would I. Please tell us, Brad.

Hopefully, or at least someone who hasn't chosen a side yet might be. Meh, there isn't so much of that now.I came here initially becase evolutionary biology is an integral part of my work and I am always keen to discuss evolution, evo-devo and biological science in general.Sadly the number of currently ongoing actual biological topics on EVC seems to be pretty low nowadays. I don't know if it is just that there are less creationists/ ID proponents who are interested in actually debating the science behind evolutionary theory or if it is just that there are fewer people on the evolution side posting things that they think might be relevant to the debate, something which occassionally stirred up some actual scientific discussion.I still hang around in the hopes that the biology forums will pick up again and to stick in my oar on developmental issues when anything even remotely touches on it. Mostly I seem to spend a lot of time bitching about the poor quality of referencing and the low standards of source material in other peoples posts, though I haven't done that so much recently.TTFN,WK

While it's unlikely that either side will be convinced and change their mind, there have been numerous examples, some even listed in this thread, of individuals changing their minds.One complaint that we hear constantly is that Creationists and ID proponents do not get to speak out. But here they do, the debate is healthy.This message has been edited by jar, 08-01-2005 10:15 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Are you looking to get a record for 'Most replies to OP ever'?hehe.The reason I came to the debate was because I heard the slogan "Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics". This struck me as odd, because whether or not something violates such a law should be easily demonstrated with maths and physics. When I investigated, I found equivocation, lies, misrepresentation and the like. I read some online debates with the big guns (Gish, Behe etc), and then started to watch the 2 hour long debates with Hovind.In the end I got really annoyed and simply had to put these arguments in their place. I discovered evc and evolutionfairytale at the same time. EvC was filled with people more qualified and experience in the debate so I lurked for a long time. Evolutionfairytale was quieter, and even had a thread about thermodynamics, so I jumped in with this. I was banned from there a few months later for 'debating too much, and equivocation'. Yeah, I made the mistake of saying that evolution agrees with creation in that dogs always give birth to dogs, but the definition of dogs just widens...or something.Anyway, at that point EvC became my debate home...I soon started seeing posts that failed to address things that I thought should be addressed, so I found myself a niche of sorts.

I like to fight.But seriously... it's an endless mystery to me how people are able to see the same thing and come to such diverse conclusions. Moreover, my knowledge of science has increased greatly since I got here.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-Aug-2005 10:59 AM

Ben has recognized quite perceptively that my own ideas are still somewhat changing. That is true.I started e\/c related internet postings originally out of the hope to present some creationist attitudes that WERE NOT PROPERLY presented enmass, as I learned... by BOTH viewing TalkOr.. and subsequently contributing to ICR's FORUM. I had no need to contribute initally to every evolutionary content as was being news grouped, so to say, in general. I was not a part of the lined disucussion as far back as Percy witnessed. I did however experience the full spectrum of the content in my family as I grew up, so... the web does not and never did provide me personally with any better understanding of the differences than I had already experienced at home, school, 4-H, and through reading non-electronic sources.In that systematic approach to getting the 5 positions related to science and religion I had read on my own (relative to biology)(the changes in my own ideas relate to learning technical IT things and some physcis I did not have by rote) and had made into 2-1/2 hours of (some live call inS)T\/, I gravitated"" to EVC because of the science context. I was not really aware of how the thread seperation was working until I had had my own dedicated network connection at home, however.My own contributions have become increasingly scientific and less religiously timbred but the web INvironMENT definitely permits the expansive thought I was having personally to be documented and available in retrospect at least to those future oriented thinkers who are not satisified with science as usual. There is a definite need to expand the boundary of science and religion and the net is great gross way to acommplish that.Within my general slant to favor certain attitudes that I have come to find through the recent years to exist"" virtually in the MINDS (as opposed to the hit and run posters lingo as that could also suggest in a false fact etc) of EVCerS, errrrrr, I have also been more or less guided"" by the form of EvC, to develop my science further or suffer the less magnificant fate of having an ADMIN comment. I have however NEVER read Percy's comments to me as anything but positive.--the fantastic FIVE::--philosophical math----philosophical chem----evolution by force--- creation ex n---0...-&-panbiogeograpy!If I am lucky and the clover is a lover of this five fingered writing I do more or less by intuition (and experience etc)it might be that soemthing more than curiousity will be the history of EvC to culture and of my own "legacy"(to be a bit purplishly proud). The suggestion I made a few years ago to develop the Darwinian extension for macrothermodyanmics which resulted in Dr. Glayshev citing EVC in regular text and autographing a copy of his book to me was enough for my own use of EVC and any autobiographical material possibly gleanable from prior posts here, but indeed, I have forged on and continue both to raise creation and science so as to proove, beyond the lemon of the vehicle being tested, to politicos that creation is teachable (in a very narrow width viewable on EVC) in such an environment cev etc, that raises both science and religion. There is a case sensensitve environs (Fined again wake shem) on both sides hence no sand painting continuity (no investigation) but we called that "debate" i would rebate or discount.Yet, indeed this remains to be more properly objectified. The lastest thoughts that I have had about carbon shifting codes in side chains continuous with differential equations non-Laplacian I have yet to set out in a dense post but I have been able thanks to EVC to go beyond the simple information circuit I called in 92 while working for the Animal Science Dept at CU "centriolar cycle" into one that explains my CREATIONIST equivalence I got from Duane Gish on the difference in my own mind of a "side chain" and a "functional group". It is a tribute and attribute of the design of EVC that I have outsource my own carbon that would have stayed only with the anthropic principle. It does not. More later. Brad.This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 08-01-2005 11:21 AM

In your av. you allways have that jar with something pickled in it.My first guess is that it's some animals liver, my second is that it is a Beluga whale fetus.What the hell is it?

I direct the honourable gentleman/woman to the previous thread "What the hell is wounded kings avitar?".But in short, yes it is a beluga whale foetus, its just a teensy tiny one now. It was clearer in my old avatar when you could see the head properly, for a all it's full glory go here.TTFN,WKThis message has been edited by Wounded King, 08-02-2005 02:23 AM