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Author Topic:   The Obama Nation
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 534 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 91 of 171 (478925)
08-22-2008 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Buzsaw
08-21-2008 11:36 PM


Re: Red Herring Charge
I'm not retracting, Buz. I don't expect you to concede that your comments are racist - racists frequently insist that they are not, in fact, racist.

Everyone else can see it pretty plainly. You're using insinuations and "connections" instead of outright saying it, but dog-whistle racism isn't new.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:36 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 92 of 171 (478931)
08-22-2008 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Buzsaw
08-21-2008 11:36 PM


Still no socialism
Buz> You keep claiming that Obama is a socialist, and he votes for and introduces bills that are 'socialistic'.

I've provided you with a goverment source for finding these thing out, and you have yet show me any thing he has ever done that's 'socialistic'.

http://thomas.loc.gov
Choose Obama in the dropdown menu, and find his socialistic bills, and tell me about them. Untill you do, youre just asserting things without anything to back it up.

Or is the Library of congress not as good a source as books written by crooks and frauds that have been repeatedly rebuted?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:36 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:00 AM Shield has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 171 (478938)
08-22-2008 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by subbie
08-21-2008 11:49 PM


Re: Red Herring Charge
subbie writes:

Interesting defense. You're not a racist because your hatemongering is instead based on religious bigotry

How does citing his association with terrorism make one racist?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by subbie, posted 08-21-2008 11:49 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 171 (478939)
08-22-2008 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Shield
08-22-2008 4:31 AM


Re: Still no socialism
rbp writes:

I've provided you with a goverment source for finding these thing out, and you have yet show me any thing he has ever done that's 'socialistic'.

Rbp, aside from his socialist and communist/Markcist past connections cited, I've addressed his socialistic redistribution ambitions for America.
What would your response be to that?

How is that different from Obama’s dream of taxing the rich in order to equalize people’s economic condition? Castro confiscates and redistributes 100 percent. Obama wants to confiscate and redistribute, say, 30 percent. Big deal. The difference is one of degree, not one of principle. Socialism is socialism.

At least the Cuban people recognize that they live under a socialist order. The American people have permitted themselves to be convinced that their system continues to be “free enterprise.” In fact, when you confront an ordinary American with the fact that public (i.e., government) schooling and government-provided health care are the core elements of Fidel Castro’s system, they’re likely to say, “You mean Castro is finally adopting free enterprise?” The sad plight of the American people can be summed up with the words of Johann von Goethe: “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.”


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Shield, posted 08-22-2008 4:31 AM Shield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Modulous, posted 08-22-2008 9:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 96 by subbie, posted 08-22-2008 1:25 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 97 by Chiroptera, posted 08-22-2008 1:46 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 100 by Shield, posted 08-22-2008 3:24 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7372
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 95 of 171 (478942)
08-22-2008 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
08-22-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Still no socialism
Obama wants to confiscate and redistribute, say, 30 percent.

30% socialism is 70% not socialism. The existance of taxes doesn't equal socialism. Meanwhile, in real socialist leaning country's 30% sounds very small.

Everybody knows that the Democrats are more socialist in their character than Republicans, but what about Obama is noteworthily socialist...

In fact, when you confront an ordinary American with the fact that public (i.e., government) schooling and government-provided health care are the core elements of Fidel Castro’s system

...and almost every succesful developed nation in the world. Are you proposing that any presidential candidate wants public schooling and free health-care are communists? Did you know that the idea wasn't Castro's? Unless I'm mistaken the idea of free education was around in Paine's time (one of the intellectual founding fathers) (about three years longer than Castro has been alive) and Britain has had free healthcare for 60 years which is longer than Castro was in power.

Here is your claim:

[Obama]'s agenda includes the redistribution of wealth to the extent that socialist regimes have gone in the past

Shall we compare Obama's agenda with Clement Attlee's actual time in office? I'm sure Clement Attlee is more socialist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:00 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 96 of 171 (478945)
08-22-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
08-22-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Still no socialism
quote:
Rbp, aside from his socialist and communist/Markcist past connections cited, I've addressed his socialistic redistribution ambitions for America.
What would your response be to that?

Well, my response would be that your link is some blogger's description of what he thinks Obama wants to do. I'd no more rely on that than I would a cdesign proponentist's description of the ToE. In other words, it's no evidence at all.

Moreover, you were specifically asked to indicate which of the things that Obama has actually done are socialist, and given a link to a list of things that he's done. If you can't find anything there, the only conclusion that any rational person can come to is that you are nothing but a fearmongering demagogue.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:00 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 1926 days)
Posts: 6202
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 97 of 171 (478946)
08-22-2008 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
08-22-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Still no socialism
From the link:

quote:
The central point of Barack Obama’s economic plan is to tax the rich in order the give money to the poor. Of course, this is nothing more than the core philosophy of the welfare state. It is also the core principle of socialism.

Actually, it's not a core principle of socialism at all. In fact, it's not even a subsidiary principle. Do you know what socialism is, Buz? What do you think socialism is? A list of policies that you find objectionable?


Speaking personally, I find few things more awesome than contemplating this vast and majestic process of evolution, the ebb and flow of successive biotas through geological time. Creationists and others who cannot for ideological or religious reasons accept the fact of evolution miss out a great deal, and are left with a claustrophobic little universe in which nothing happens and nothing changes.
-- M. Alan Kazlev
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:00 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2621 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 98 of 171 (478950)
08-22-2008 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Buzsaw
08-21-2008 11:14 PM


Hitler is Obama?
yeah . . .let's see.

Hitler became popular for dismantling the Treaty of Versailles, which had crippled the German republic since they wree forced to sign it (the reparations being one of the major causes of the massive inflation that killed the Weimar republic. not as bad as Brazils in the 90s on Zimbabwe now, not not by much). He did this by promoting one thing the nation had a history of greatness in--militarization. He got them out of depression by building one of the best war economies the world had seen, breaking the Treaty of Versaille (not that anyone at the League cared). He instilled national pride in them when he convinced them to go to war against Europe, and guess what--they were winning easily.

The key thing you're missing in your comparison of Hitler and Obama is the aspect of militarization and complete disregard for international treaties. Obama has yet to advocate the strengthening of our economy by tripling our war-machine. In fact, he's doing the opposite--saying let's shrink it by getting out of Iraq and spending the money on domestic issues. Obama has also yet to propose a "take over the world" scheme to build pride in a devastated nation. Do you seriously think he will?

Another key point you miss is that the US of 2008 is nothing like the Germany of 1932. Our recession is not the Great Depression of the 1920s for Germany (their's being far worse than our GD).

So yeah, I think I will laugh at your comparison on the two because, as usual, you've got things so, so wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:14 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:21 PM kuresu has responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2621 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 99 of 171 (478951)
08-22-2008 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
08-21-2008 11:30 PM


Re: Red Herring Charge
fucking christ, Buz, calm down. Step away from the computer and come back tomorrow once the steam coming out of your ears has resided.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2008 11:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Shield
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


(1)
Message 100 of 171 (478954)
08-22-2008 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
08-22-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Still no socialism
Rbp, aside from his socialist and communist/Markcist past connections cited

:rolleyes:

Why does past connections mean so much? Some of the people who inspired me the most politically are libertarians and anarko-capitalists yet i consider my self a socialist.

Have you never known and been inspired by people you did not agree with?

I really dont think you have any idea what socialism is nor do i think you have much knowledge about any other political ideologies.

I seems to me, that you decide your opinion based on buzwords. And blatant racism of course.

I've addressed his socialistic redistribution ambitions for America.
What would your response be to that?

A blog citing no sources? That's your source? I already pointed you to the Library Of Congress website where you can easily find a complete list of bills Obama ever voted for or against or sponsored.

It really shouldnt take very long for you to find the specific laws that could resemble socialism.

Please Buz.

http://thomas.loc.gov

Edited by rbp, : Added content

Edited by rbp, : Corrected spelling and formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:00 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Chiroptera, posted 08-22-2008 3:27 PM Shield has not yet responded
 Message 104 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:41 PM Shield has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 1926 days)
Posts: 6202
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 101 of 171 (478956)
08-22-2008 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Shield
08-22-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Still no socialism
really dont think you have any idea what socialism is....

He seems to know as much about it as he does about Islam. (And about as much as he knows about U.S. history, for that matter.)


Speaking personally, I find few things more awesome than contemplating this vast and majestic process of evolution, the ebb and flow of successive biotas through geological time. Creationists and others who cannot for ideological or religious reasons accept the fact of evolution miss out a great deal, and are left with a claustrophobic little universe in which nothing happens and nothing changes.
-- M. Alan Kazlev
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Shield, posted 08-22-2008 3:24 PM Shield has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 171 (478981)
08-22-2008 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by kuresu
08-22-2008 2:12 PM


Re: Hitler is Obama?
Kuresu writes:

The key thing you're missing in your comparison of Hitler and Obama is the aspect of militarization and complete disregard for international treaties. Obama has yet to advocate the strengthening of our economy by tripling our war-machine. In fact, he's doing the opposite--saying let's shrink it by getting out of Iraq and spending the money on domestic issues. Obama has also yet to propose a "take over the world" scheme to build pride in a devastated nation. Do you seriously think he will?

Another key point you miss is that the US of 2008 is nothing like the Germany of 1932. Our recession is not the Great Depression of the 1920s for Germany (their's being far worse than our GD).

So yeah, I think I will laugh at your comparison on the two because, as usual, you've got things so, so wrong.

So far as your attempt to refute my position, your message is pointless, Kuresu. Why don't you address the items listed in my message?

Of course Hitler, Germany and the US were not exactly alike. There were, however, striking similarities which you can't just laugh off.

Below are the ones listed in my message #81.


1. Hitler was very popular in Germany before and after gaining power.
2. Hitler was a slick and capable orator who chould appear as all things to all citizens.
3. Hitler's policies were quite socialistic.
4. Hitler promised change and the people got change.
5. Hitler was what some refer to as a messiah figure.

I said, there's more, such as:

Hitler was a white suppremicist.

Obama's church which he attended and substantially supported is black suppremacist oriented and having associations with The Nation Of Islam, awarded black suppremacist Louis Farrakhan it's highest award.

" In the preface to his 1970 book, A Black Theology of Liberation, Wright wrote: "There will be no peace in America until whites begin to hate their whiteness, asking from the depths of their being: 'How can we become black?'" [9]

No, Buzsaw is not the racist bigot. Buzsaw is simply citing the highly implicated racism of the man who may become the most powerful person in America and perhaps the world.

Edited by Buzsaw, : change word


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by kuresu, posted 08-22-2008 2:12 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by DrJones*, posted 08-22-2008 9:39 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 105 by subbie, posted 08-22-2008 10:13 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 114 by kuresu, posted 08-23-2008 12:59 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1642
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 103 of 171 (478983)
08-22-2008 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Buzsaw
08-22-2008 9:21 PM


Re: Hitler is Obama?
No, Buzsaw is not the racist bigot

so you didn't say:

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.

Message 177
?


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:21 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 10:16 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 171 (478984)
08-22-2008 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Shield
08-22-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Still no socialism
rbp writes:

I really dont think you have any idea what socialism is nor do i think you have much knowledge about any other political ideologies.

No, Rbp. The problem is that in your ignorance of how political ideologies come to be, they don't suddenly happen. For example, Sweden's socialistically oriented democracy is not yet what Stalin's USSR totalitary socialistic regime was. Savvy?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Shield, posted 08-22-2008 3:24 PM Shield has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-22-2008 10:31 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 113 by kuresu, posted 08-23-2008 12:38 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 105 of 171 (478986)
08-22-2008 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Buzsaw
08-22-2008 9:21 PM


Point by point refutation
quote:
1. Hitler was very popular in Germany before and after gaining power.

Obama hasn't been considerably more popular in Germany than any other U.S. politician. and certainly not nearly as popular has Hitler was at his height of popularity.

quote:
2. Hitler was a slick and capable orator who chould appear as all things to all citizens.

Obama has never once represented himself to be a Heisman Trophy winner, the inventor of shoe lace eyelets, or 7 time Emmy winner Mary Tyler Moore, among countless other things.

quote:
3. Hitler's policies were quite socialistic.

Well, since you have resisted all attempts to try to find out what you mean by socialism, I shall provide a definition:

social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

I'm quite certain Obama hasn't called for the nationalization of any businesses or industries, nor has he called for the abolition of private ownership of property, natural resources, or the means of production of goods. He hasn't suggested that everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it.

Lastly, and most importantly, he hasn't called for a National Ice Cream Social Day.

quote:
4. Hitler promised change and the people got change.

I haven't seen any change yet. What's more, I've explained to you that Obama's ability to work the kinds of changes you are talking about is quite limited.

quote:
5. Hitler was what some refer to as a messiah figure.

Ok, this one I gotta give you somewhat.

I can't tell you the number of times, during various political discussions I've had with people, I've heard the phrase:

"President Obama?!? Jesus Christ!!!"

Mostly this is followed by a string of invective and racial epithets that I generally don't repeat in mixed company.

So, as you can see, you are almost entirely wrong in your baseless comparision, not the mention the hundreds of ways in which Obama is completely different from Hitler that you simply ignore.

In closing, may your armpits be infested with the fleas of a thousand camels.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 9:21 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2008 10:19 PM subbie has responded
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:26 PM subbie has responded

  
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