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Author Topic:   Oprah Winfrey is doing more harm than good in Africa.
pelican
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 1 of 26 (454912)
02-09-2008 9:42 AM


Although O is doing the best she knows how from her personal life experiences, I believe she is not qualified to lead the education of the children in Africa.
O was born and raised in america as an american. The people and especialy the mothers of Africa have a completly different culture and value system.
O is even dressing the girls in uniforms as she was dressed, not in traditional african dress.
Is oprah causing more harm than good by educating these children to american standards when africa will never have the resources to sustain an american way of life?
Edited by Admin, : Fix spelling error in title.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-09-2008 10:48 AM pelican has replied
 Message 3 by Granny Magda, posted 02-09-2008 11:15 AM pelican has replied
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 02-09-2008 11:31 AM pelican has replied
 Message 5 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2008 11:39 AM pelican has not replied
 Message 13 by Creationista, posted 02-11-2008 1:20 PM pelican has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 26 (454920)
02-09-2008 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
02-09-2008 9:42 AM


The Grand Ole Oprah
I suppose that time will tell. At least Oprah is doing something...
My Hero Project writes:
But during Christmas 2002, her life changed when she traveled to South Africa to bring holiday cheer to the children. She calls those 21 days some of the most miraculous of her life.
“I realized in those moments why I was born, why I am not married and do not have children of my own. These are my children. I made a decision to be a voice for those children, to empower them, to help educate them, so the spirit that burns alive inside each of them does not die," she said.
So we get a sense of her motivation.... and of her vision:
"Education is the way to move mountains, to build bridges, to change the world,” she said. “Education is the path to the future. I believe that education is indeed freedom. With God's help, these girls will be the future leaders on the path to peace in South Africa and the world."
I don't see her efforts as failing. Maybe she is not doing it "perfectly" and perhaps she is injecting a sense of false hope, but I agree that the ability to provide education for these kids is the main focus and is overall a good thing.
Edited by Phat, : added features

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 3 of 26 (454922)
02-09-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
02-09-2008 9:42 AM


Is oprah causing more harm than good by educating these children to american standards when africa will never have the resources to sustain an american way of life?
I have to take issue with this bit. First, America doesn't have the resources to sustain an American way of life. If everybody lived as we do in the prosperous West, we would need about four Earths.
Also, I fail to see how education would be somehow wasted on South Africans. SA is a developed country, with plenty of infrastructure and industry. The problem is that the jobs always used to go to the white population. Educating poor kids will help to redistribute those jobs a little more fairly. South African kids don't want to grow up to be subsistence farmers. They want to be lawyers, journalists, biologists and engineers. That is why they need education. Don't patronise them.

Mutate and Survive

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 4 of 26 (454924)
02-09-2008 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
02-09-2008 9:42 AM


History tells us to never underestimate the potential for well-intentioned people to wreak havoc.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 5 of 26 (454927)
02-09-2008 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
02-09-2008 9:42 AM


Is oprah causing more harm than good by educating these children to american standards when africa will never have the resources to sustain an american way of life?
Education is never wasted, period. It's an ethical goal in and of itself, regardless of whether it is put to "use" or not.
Aside from that - nothing will ever improve at all without education. You're operating from a false dilemma, assuming that the only two choices are A) uneducated bare subsistence living, and B) an American lifestyle. You don't need to live like a wealthy American to have improved over the status quo, which is an obviously attainable and worthwhile goal.
Differences in culture are irrelevant to education: critical thinking skills, knowledge of science, history, mathematics, the ability to read, all are completely culturally neutral, unless your culture somehow idolizes stupidity.
The only time education and culture conflict is when facts contradict long-held superstitions. Of course, eliminating superstitions and giving a greater understanding of how the world really works is part of the point, isnt it. Perhaps they'll take issue with Evolution vs their own flavor of Creation...but then, we have that problem here, too.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 26 (454971)
02-09-2008 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rahvin
02-09-2008 11:39 AM


How About Christianize
Off the top of my head the impact of Fundamental Biblical Evangelical Christianity has been the most significant to the improvement of life in formerly pagan Africa than any other factor. The African nations or cultures within nations influenced the most by Biblical evangelical Christianity have been the most free, the most prosperous and the most blessed nations/cultures on the continent of Africa.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 7 of 26 (454972)
02-09-2008 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
02-09-2008 3:19 PM


Re: How About Christianize
Off the top of my head the impact of Fundamental Biblical Evangelical Christianity has been the most significant to the improvement of life in formerly pagan Africa than any other factor. The African nations or cultures within nations influenced the most by Biblical evangelical Christianity have been the most free, the most prosperous and the most blessed nations/cultures on the continent of Africa.
Mmmm hmmm.
Improvements couldn't possibly be due to education, food supplies, or medicine. no, they must be due to the blessings of your "god."
I will grant you that much of the charity work done in Africa is done by Christians in general, and Christian missions in particular.
Of course, the AIDS epidemic in Africa has been drastically worsened by "abstinence-only" education and claims for instance that condoms somehow cause HIV and AIDS, and these teachings are religious in nature with no basis in fact.
I'd also like to point out that Zimbabwe, a very Christian nation, is a shithole thanks to its president Mugabe. Their superstitions recently allowed them to be hoodwinked by a scam artist into believing that diesel fuel could come from a magic rock when struck with a stick, exactly as Moses did with water in the OT. Turns out a woman had found a misplaced tank of diesel and run a hose, and used an accomplice to turn on the diesel - but Mugabe and his goons bought it after observing the flowing fuel, and paid her a hefty sum of money before the scam was uncovered.
Superstitions are bad when they conflict with objective fact, Buzsaw, bar none.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

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pelican
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 8 of 26 (455016)
02-09-2008 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
02-09-2008 11:31 AM


History tells us to never underestimate the potential for well-intentioned people to wreak havoc.
I agree with that completely. The white folks over here thought they were doing the Aboriginal community a favour. They still live in poverty today. They have suffered so much and only now are these people being heard. Oprah ain't even asking never mind listening.
Edited by paula rose, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2008 9:33 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 9 of 26 (455020)
02-09-2008 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Granny Magda
02-09-2008 11:15 AM


Education does not = more work
I have to take issue with this bit. First, America doesn't have the resources to sustain an American way of life. If everybody lived as we do in the prosperous West, we would need about four Earths.
Why take issue, Magda? You have highlighted my point exactly. Where does America get all their resourses from?
SA is a developed country, with plenty of infrastructure and industry.
This is just not true.
The problem is that the jobs always used to go to the white population.
So now the whites are out of work?
They want to be lawyers, journalists, biologists and engineers. That is why they need education.
If we all aspired to these heights and reached these levels of professionalism, do you think the world would be a better place?
You know Magda, it is quite possible you have a pair of drapes hanging at your window that I made whilst earning a living for my family. I churned out hundreds that were distributed all over the world. There will be no more sewing machinists. I made jeans and lingerie too. No more cheap mass production. I can't wait. I can make my own clothes.
There are far reaching possible disastrous consequences that we are leaving as a legacy for our children. We need to see them now, not wait for the future and learn again in retrospect, or not as the case may be.
Don't patronise them.
Wrong again. I matronize them because I am them.
Edited by paula rose, : No reason given.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 10 of 26 (455036)
02-09-2008 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by pelican
02-09-2008 6:48 PM


I agree with that completely. The white folks over here thought they were doing the Aboriginal community a favour. They still live in poverty today. They have suffered so much and only now are these people being heard. Oprah ain't even asking never mind listening.
Is she forcing anyone? If not, then she most certainly is asking. Is she forcing conversions to Christianity? Is she moving people off of their land?
Your comparison to the Australian aboriginals is one of apples to oranges. Setting up a school is very different from oppressing indigenous people.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

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pelican
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 11 of 26 (455065)
02-10-2008 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rahvin
02-09-2008 9:33 PM


History tells us to never underestimate the potential for well-intentioned people to wreak havoc.
This was the only comparison I made.
I agree with that completely. The white folks over here thought they were doing the Aboriginal community a favour.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 26 (455096)
02-10-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by pelican
02-09-2008 7:17 PM


Re: Education does not = more work
They want to be lawyers, journalists, biologists and engineers. That is why they need education.
quote:
If we all aspired to these heights and reached these levels of professionalism, do you think the world would be a better place?
False dilemma.
Just because people aspire to reach these levels of achievement doesn't mean all people have the same intellectual potential or drive to reach them, even if we all have the same educational opportunities.
Not everyone will want to get a PhD or a medical or law degree. Some people will instead want to become businesspeople, or artists, or whatever.
A good education is needed to be a well-rounded person. A good education is extremely helpful in having the knowledge and thinking skills and exposure to varied ideas that enables people to be creative in their careers and lives.
I find your implication that we should withold education from people who currently, due to their lack of opportunity to become educated, are the labor pool which produces cheap consumer goods for rich western nations, simply because it would be terrible to not have cheap laborers anymore to be morally repugnant.
Brother Guy Consolmagno has this to say about educating poor people:
I'd been an astronomer for 15 years before I decided to enter the Jesuits. And I did my undergraduate work at MIT and my doctorate at Arizona. And at one point I wondered why was I wasting my time doing astronomy when people are starving in the world - a little voice of conscience.
So I joined the Peace Corps. While I was there, I discovered that I loved teaching. But mostly I discovered that the people in Africa, the people in Kenya, where I was, wanted to know about astronomy. That's what they wanted from me. And they were as fascinated and as excited about it as I was, as anyone in America.
And I understood then why it's important. It's one of those things that makes us more than just well-fed cows. It satisfies a really deep hunger to know, to go someplace, to explore. And that is a hunger that is as human, as basic to human beings as food and shelter and anything else. And it's denied to a person only at the cost of denying them their humanity. By telling poor people, "No, no, you have to go hunt for food, you can't do astronomy," you are saying that they're less than human. And that's wrong. And it's a tragedy.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 13 of 26 (455213)
02-11-2008 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
02-09-2008 9:42 AM


"O is even dressing the girls in uniforms as she was dressed, not in traditional african dress. "
Please tell me how many people wear "traditional" african dress on a daily basis, and even more, what is traditional "african" dress? With 53 countries, and 900 million people, do tell me what singular uniform you believe they should be wearing?

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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 14 of 26 (455224)
02-11-2008 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
02-09-2008 11:31 AM


quote:
History tells us to never underestimate the potential for well-intentioned people to wreak havoc.
Iraq and Afghanistan are fine examples of that.
Aside from that, I wonder why the 'mighty' Ms. O could not do this for black American children.
Edited by ThreeDogs, : No reason given.

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pelican
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 15 of 26 (455276)
02-11-2008 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
02-09-2008 10:48 AM


Re: The Grand Ole Oprah
Yes, time will tell. I just hope it isn't too late when it does.

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