Is anyone else fed up with Muslims complaining all the time?

Holmes, How can it be reasonable and erroneous when we all have the same information?Your analogy breaks down because scientists can make reasonable inferences at any given time that subsequently are shown to be wrong with data discovered later.We all have the same data in this case. Either this particular subset of muslims are unreasonable or they aren't based on the information we all have now. Just because they have a different point of view or come from a different ethnic background doesn't prevent them from, or make it reasonable/understandable to make inappropriate conflations combined with fallacies of composition.Either Islam is under attack, or it isn't. Given that Islam isn't under attack, then it is not understandable that they maintain the opposite position.Markadded by edit: Are you sure? Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

Schraf, I am, Israel attacked the Lebanon, not because it was Islamic, but because it was being attacked from Lebanon by terrorist groups. Israel did not attack the Lebanon because it contained muslims, or was an Islamic state.I assume you were talking about the recent fraca, but the same argument holds in any situation. Israel is motivated by national security (& please be clear, I'm not condoning the causes of why it has to act this way, or its actions), not a hatred of Islam. As I've stated before, Israel couldn't give a hoot what religious persuasion the people are that attack them. They are not justified in their opinion that their religion is under attack in the middle-east, because it plainly isn't. In the same way that christianity wasn't under attack on 9/11.MarkEdited by mark24, : No reason given.

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

I realize that atrocities have occurred so don't take my next statements as indications that I think all the pictures are faked. However, none of us know the circumstances behind that boy's killing. Who took the picture? Who is claiming the boy was surrendering? Of course Al Jazzera (sp?) wouldn't skew or manufacture news to support their view, would they? I'm sure that detailed forensic analysis of each of those "murders" would point directly to a brutal jack-booted American soldier who intentionally set out to kill innocent people because they are Muslims.(sarcasm)It just seemed to me that you were using the shock value of those bloody corpses to imply that whatever the protesters do, it is really all the fault of the Americans.

quote:

---

Of course Al Jazzera (sp?) wouldn't skew or manufacture news to support their view, would they?

---

I dunno. Would they? Why would they? What "view" would they have to support? The view that events are happening, and people need to know about these events? Is the "skewing" or "manufacturing" of news mainly a problem of Al-Jazeera, or is every news organization that reports facts that seem to put US policy into question (and that of its allies) guilty of "skewing" or "manufacturing"?Edited to add:

quote:

---

It just seemed to me that you were using the shock value of those bloody corpses to imply that whatever the protesters do, it is really all the fault of the Americans.

---

That's funny. I don't get that from his post at all. But I'll let Dan tell us what he really meant. I do get the impression from your post that you think that anyone who presents information contrary to US policy (or that of its allies) is probably "skewing" or "manufacturing" the news. Would that be an accurate impression?Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

I'm sure there is, in fact, a perfectly reasonable set of circumstances that make it okay to kill a young boy, who is clutching a white surrender flag in his hands. Dahr Jamail. A white flag is a fairly universal symbol. It is, at the very least, known to the US Army. I have no idea if they would or not. But Jamail doesn't work for Al Jazeera, so I'm not sure what the relevance is.The photos to which I linked, however, were taken under the supervision of the US military. No, I'm sure the boy was a total fucker. Okay. I just said, in my last post, that it wasn't my intent, but whatever.

---

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

I guess I am assuming that those who are rioting do not have the same information. It is likely not complete, and perhaps biased.You may have a point regarding the above with regard to leaders, but I'm not sure it is the same with the larger mass of upset people. It seemed to me schraf was qualifying their assessment of Israel's motives, not the world's motives.On a side note: I just received some rather upsetting news, and it has some profound effect on my future. Real life stuff. I may not be able to post responses for a while. I'll try but I can't promise anything.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

That is distressing to hear, holmes. Take care and I wish you well.

Holmes, Even if, for example, Johnny Syrian didn't realise that terrorists were attacking Israel from Lebanon, it still doesn't warrant a "therefore they are attacking Islam" conclusion.What information are they privy to that allows such a conclusion to be arrived at? OK, no problem, I hope you get some sort of resolution, mate.Mark

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

Thanks. I guess I am back already. Not exactly well, but with a survival plan that should keep me afloat for a bit. It relates to something I was discussing with berb earlier and for those that are interested here is a post sketching out what happened.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Heheheh (cough cough, hack up blood)... the problem is that I got a little too much resolution. It was totally against me and my gf. I created a post briefly explaining what happened and why I'm back quicker than I thought I would be.I guess this is to say I'm wounded, but not out of action. Thanks for your words of support, it actually does help me as I have a long battle ahead, after barely surviving a devastating surprise attack (a major tactical and morale loss). Well first of all I have a problem with the above. How did Johnny Israeli and Joe US get the idea that Israel and "our civilization" were under attack, and that Lebanon should be invaded because a terrorist org launched a limited strike against soldiers (kidnapping two)? That's what led to the massive loss of life in Lebanon.That such an obvious transgression of international law by national powers (Israel backed politically and militarily by the US) when terrorist attacks by Israelis on Palestinians and Lebanese do not meet with the same results (political and military) creates a very credible illusion that a double standard is in play. When both Israeli and US leaders discuss this in terms of clashes of civilizations, and prominent figures in both nations making statements against Islam without direct rebuke from the leaders, that really does look bad.In any case, the question was about the general feeling they get which does not have to rely on any particular case, but the buildup of actions. If the practical result is Islamic countries keep getting the shaft and seeing themselves portrayed badly, no matter what other political reality underlies it, they are likely to see a common theme.I guess this is to say they are finding what is common to them all, just as the US and Israeli populations find what is common to them and claim that is what is under attack, rather than looking at what political realities underlie Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Afghanistan.And I think the general masses in the mideast have poorer information networks. That is they are more prone to the "telephone" effect. How many do you think actually heard what the pope said, or had some real access to it? They likely heard something from someone and believed it. In fact they may have read it as well from bad sources, just like Joe US gets his news from Fox.I totally agree they are wrong. I think your point is well made that to suggest Islam is under attack is to miss everything actually in play. I just think that schraf has a point (if I am understanding it) that the average person in depressed mideast nations are unlikely to have access to proper information on, much less correct understandings of, the intricate geopolitical situation they are in and so get a "feeling" based on more superficial analysis of regional events.That is of course assuming that those that riot are the average, which you and I likely disagree on (I think they are a minority). And it is to skip over the portion which may very well have the info, but are spinning it to gain an advantaged (the leadership).Edited by holmes, : forgot to say thank you.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Holmes, I guess I'd have to agree to this possibility, what is less understandable is similar opinions being expressed by muslims in the west.Mark

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

Agreed, though I'd chalk it up to the same level of ignorance enjoyed by the vast majority of Americans who actually believed Iraq had something to do with 9/11, or at least the smaller percentage of Americans (unfortunately some who are high profile and connected to the Bush administration) who claim that ours is a war against Islam and its false god.Of course at that point one is forced to ask if their beliefs are justified or understandable. I mean we can understand and ignorant person coming to an ignorant conclusion, but its not easily understood why a person would actually choose to remain ignorant if they don't have to be.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I thought you knew that.Yes I don't BELIEVE because there is no way to test for this thing called God. Well, not quite everything, but for the immediate dangers that our world faces I do. It is certain that religion will bring about the premature death of our planet. I have no way of telling. What we can comment on is the facts that we have, and the facts demonstrate that religion is essentially evil.Look at the last time Christianity led the world, it led us straight into the dark ages. We are animals. Intelligence has a part to play. I think we are more intelligent than most animals.But they things you mention occur because of religion too.Look at Israel's murdering of innocent Palestinians over the last 5 decades, that is about territory.What did King David do for a piece of ass? Sent a good friend to certain death wasn't it? When the prophecies were written it appeared at the time that the world was going to end. 2000 years later we are still waiting. People invented religion, people invented God, so of course they are to blame. I don't recall seeing any atheist suicide bombers recently. I don't see atheists crying because some old guy quoted an old text.The fact is, religious people have a little bit missing, they have a want about them, a fear of responsibility, a fear of thefuture. They need a little father figure in the sky to look after them.The sad thing is, these crackpots are killing the world that belongs to us all. We atheists are innocent bystanders in a struggle between people who cannot prove a single thing about their faiths, we athiests are losing our world, and our children's world to people who are ending it because of a few fairytales.It is so very very sad.A wonderful, beautiful world, that will die because the majority believe something MIGHT be true.Brian.

Wait a sec, don't they complain when that same guy addresses atheism, abortion, homosexuality, and science? Maybe not in the same way but they crab about it.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

quote:

---

I just think that schraf has a point (if I am understanding it) that the average person in depressed mideast nations are unlikely to have access to proper information on, much less correct understandings of, the intricate geopolitical situation they are in and so get a "feeling" based on more superficial analysis of regional events.

---

Bing!Give the little lady a prize.