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Author Topic:   PROOF OF GOD
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 16 of 355 (107518)
05-11-2004 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object
05-11-2004 2:56 PM


Hi WT,
A few questions for when you come back on-line:
The Pyramid says the Exodus happened in 1453 B.C. (the one led by Moses)
Yes, that is the one I was talking about.
Velikovsky, I believe, came within 7 years of that date.
That's because Velikovsky used 1 Kings 6:1 to date it, unfortunately he was more like 207 years out.
We both know that the Exodus has been widely debated as to when it ocurred.
Yes indeed we do. The date I propose in my dissertation is the mid 13th century BCE, in line with all the main scholars involved in the debate. A 15th century Exodus hasn't been pursued for decades.
The external evidence, the dates set by people like Velikovsky and others narrow the year within the ballpark.
Well I know what evidence I base my dating on, what evidence do you have to suggest a mid 15th century Exodus?
do you understand what I am saying ?
Do you?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-11-2004 2:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-11-2004 6:03 PM Brian has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 355 (107525)
05-11-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
05-11-2004 2:39 PM


Cliff, while you're at it
could you please explain how
Egypt is the only country in the world where you can be in the center of Egypt and at the border. This is so because at the exact location of the Pyramid is the Nile-Delta Quadrant, which is the border of Upper and Lower Egypt AND it is the center of all Egypt.
could possibly be true. Did someone move the Pyramids from their original position? When you speak of the Upper and Lower Kingdom how are you defining the border so that Giza which is at 29.98 N is the center and border between the Upper and Lower Kingdoms while Thebes which is at 25.71 N is not?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 18 of 355 (107561)
05-11-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
05-11-2004 9:40 AM


Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Isaiah 19:19 refers to an altar in the midst of Egypt and a pillar at the border. Why do you say that these refer to the same thing ?
______________________________________________________________________
Because the verse is saying that something exists in the middle of Egpyt AND on the border of Egypt.
This exactitude means if you locate the center of Egypt, that this spot WILL ALSO be the border between Upper and Lower Egypt.
According to Dr. Scott an altar is a place of death where objects/hagios are surrendered to the Deity for the exclusive use of the Deity, OR an altar is something erected to testify to something.
A pillar or in the hebrew "matstsebah'/monument is synonymous with the second defintion with the connotation being an object that is built/stone.
As to your Exodus 20:25 reference: This verse cannot possibly negate or contradict the posted evidence. You need to explain in context what this verse says and then use it to refute what you object to.
I believe the Exodus verse says God forbids the first type of altars from being chipped and ground, meaning the materials used must not be altered in any way.
Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Isaiah 19 refers to the future of Egypt from the perspective of Isaiah's time. Why do you assume that the altar and the pillar which will be present "in that day" are the Great Pyramid which already existed centuries before Isaiah ? Surely the implication of Isaiah is that they are not present at the time of writing.
______________________________________________________________________
I agree that the Pyramid existed centuries prior to Isaiah.
Isaiah was a prophet, which loosely interpreted means he occupied an office that spoke for God. It doesn't necessarily mean everything spoken was in the future.
As to the rest of your pointy point I do not have an answer, but, the evidence presented in its totality in regards to this specific issue is not threatened by this point of yours unless you can somehow demonstrate how the generalities disprove the specifics and details of the claim.
Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Why is it unreasonable to conclude that it is the people of these five cities who will set up the altar of Isaiah 19:19 ?
______________________________________________________________________
This was your comment to Isaiah 19:18.
I honestly do not know. However, I would need to consult with an expert like Dr. Scott before I open my mouth, furthermore, let me point out that when Jesus quoted Isaiah in Luke 4:18 He abruptly stopped in the middle of the verse (61:2) and then said "this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears". He stopped because the next phrase of that prophecy would not be fulfilled until the 2nd Coming when He comes in wrath to execute God's judgement. The point is Isaiah could prophesy thousands of years in one/two sentences. My point is that your rendering of the 18th verse could easily be incorrect, this and the other facts already presented are still not jeopardized. But you do have a valid point that stands until I can find the answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2004 9:40 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2004 6:47 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 19 of 355 (107567)
05-11-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Brian
05-11-2004 3:04 PM


I cannot presently prove or evidence my claim pertaining to Velikovsky. I am searching my infuriating notes, this is why I prefaced my remarks with unsurety.
Brian quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Yes indeed we do. The date I propose in my dissertation is the mid 13th century BCE, in line with all the main scholars involved in the debate. A 15th century Exodus hasn't been pursued for decades.
______________________________________________________________________
But what do the main scholars/yourself base your dating on ?
Brian, I am in no way challenging you as an opponent in this specific issue. I saw what you did to Buzsaw in a recent previous debate
I am reporting what I know from the sources I cite. What makes the Pyramid SO convincing is the identification of the starting benchmark.
Dr. Scott recently said this: "Jesus was born in 4 B.C." which contradicts his earlier and long known position that the Pyramid marks Christ's birth to be 2 B.C. I don't know if he misspoke or has changed his view or if there are "reasons" why the Pyramid might be wrong. I intend to find out as soon as possible though.
The OP is a sliver of a sample of the prophetic wonders encapsulated within the Pyramid.
The 1453 date, and how it was arrived at, and the interpretation of the physical passageways ALL combine for a "coincidence" that would be impossible to achieve by luck or guesswork.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 05-11-2004 3:04 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Brian, posted 05-12-2004 8:21 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 20 of 355 (107579)
05-11-2004 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object
05-11-2004 5:35 PM


Isaiah specifies an altar to the Lord. Exodus 20:25 - which specifies a rule on how to build an altar to the Lord is relevant.
"If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it."
Obviously you did not read the relevant verse.
And if the Great Pyramid is a monument then it is surely a monument to Khufu, the Pharoah.
Oh and you still have to explain why the verse should not be read as talking about an altar in the midst of Egypt and an entirely seperate pillar on the border. Your answer simply assuems that the altar and the pillar are the same thing, begging the question.
I note that you can offer no reason to assume that Isaiah was not talking about an altar that would be built in the future - by the inhabitants of the cities he mentioned in the immediately preceding verse, who would have every reason to build such an altar.
The repeated "in that day" of Isaiah 19 indicates that the cities and the altar and pillar will be contemporary, when Judah terrifies Egypt into worship of the Jewish God (Isaiah 19:17). Since at that time the Egyptians will sacrifice to God (Isaiah 19:21) it seems most likely that Isaiah was referring to an actual altar built and used according to Jewish practices.
So we really don't have a good reason to link Isaiah 19:19 with the Great Pyramid at all. Even the argument based on location relies on the assumption that the altar and the pillar are the same thing - and even that is not a strong link.
So that is one point where the evidence seems to be very much lacking.
The next questions are:
1) why should we use that particular stellar alignment for the start date ?
2) where does the "sacred inch" come from and why should we use that for a year ?
3) Why should position 5 be assumed to correspond to the Exodus ?
4) Why not continue measuring down the descending passage to get the date corresponding to the well-shaft ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-11-2004 5:35 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-11-2004 6:57 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-12-2004 7:11 PM PaulK has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 21 of 355 (107583)
05-11-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
05-11-2004 6:47 PM


My next post will respond to the specifics of this reply, but, this response of yours does repeat points that I already answered in my previous reply.
The purpose of this post is to supply links for you or anyone interested.
IIS 8.5 Detailed Error - 404.0 - Not Found
http://asis.com/~stag/pyramid.html
http://www.network54.com/Realm/Present_Truth/pyramid.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2004 6:47 PM PaulK has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 355 (107592)
05-11-2004 7:43 PM


actually
i get most of my information
from the source
this is particularly
true when it comes
to ancient egypt
afterall
mehitabel
was once cleopatra
so i asked her about this
and she said we should
not get so interested
in technical details and such
when the real question is
is it reason
but then she would sell
her soul
for a plate of fish

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 355 (107635)
05-11-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
05-10-2004 11:54 PM


I don't have time to elaborate: but this link will should deal with most of the Pyramidology crap:
Error 404 - Australian Skeptics Inc
Pyramidology is just another example of Christina nonsense that actually does more harm to Christianity than it does good.
The greatest pagan shrine to re-incarnation, God's creation? If you split a human hair in half - that is the difference between the British inch and the Sacred inch?
Utter, utter tripe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-10-2004 11:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AdminNosy, posted 05-11-2004 11:37 PM Gilgamesh has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 24 of 355 (107641)
05-11-2004 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Gilgamesh
05-11-2004 11:22 PM


Support?
Utter, utter tripe.
This is an assertion without any support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Gilgamesh, posted 05-11-2004 11:22 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
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Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 355 (107678)
05-12-2004 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by AdminNosy
05-11-2004 11:37 PM


Re: Support?

This is an assertion without any support.
Man, we are getting strict here. Rightio.
I wrote:
The greatest pagan shrine to re-incarnation, God's creation? If you split a human hair in half - that is the difference between the British inch and the Sacred inch?
Point 1.
I'm no expert on ancient Egyptian religions, but I think I am safe in saying that a) the Pyramids a great (indeed the "greatest" of such shrines), b) the Egyptian religion is pagan and c) the whole idea of the Pyramids was to facilitate the re-incarnation 9or should that be bodily ressurrection?) of the Pharoahs.
The proposition that the greatest pagan shrine to re-incarnation is the Christian God's creation, seems at least a little far fetched and, I'd wager is utter, utter tripe.
Point 2.
Human hairs vary dramatically in width. I don't know whether Willowtree used this statement: "If you split a human hair in half - that is the difference between the British inch and the Sacred inch" as an attempt at a legitimate method of measure, or whether it was merely just a colorful way of saying that there is no difference between the two (I really can't tell with Willowtree: the stuff he posts in so left field).
If it was a method of measurement, then I claim it as utter utter tripe, based on me as an example. On the sides of my noggin' I have normal, healthy strong hair fibres of reasonable width. On the top, thanks to brilliant genetics pre-disposing me to male pattern baldness, I have feeble, thin and frail hair that is visible finer than the stuff on the sides.
Using human hair as a method of measurement is utter utter tripe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by AdminNosy, posted 05-11-2004 11:37 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Melchior, posted 05-12-2004 6:22 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 355 (107686)
05-12-2004 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Gilgamesh
05-12-2004 4:27 AM


Re: Support?
Gilgamesh writes:
Point 2.
Human hairs vary dramatically in width. I don't know whether Willowtree used this statement: "If you split a human hair in half - that is the difference between the British inch and the Sacred inch" as an attempt at a legitimate method of measure, or whether it was merely just a colorful way of saying that there is no difference between the two (I really can't tell with Willowtree: the stuff he posts in so left field).
If it was a method of measurement, then I claim it as utter utter tripe, based on me as an example. On the sides of my noggin' I have normal, healthy strong hair fibres of reasonable width. On the top, thanks to brilliant genetics pre-disposing me to male pattern baldness, I have feeble, thin and frail hair that is visible finer than the stuff on the sides.
Using human hair as a method of measurement is utter utter tripe.
You see, you read way too much into his words...
The English/Brittish inch IS The Sacred inch. It's one and the same! At some point in history, England decided that since they were such a swell nation, they should call their inch the Sacred inch to differentiate it from the load of other (widely varying) inches in the world.
The definition of the English/Sacred inch is indeed 1/500'000'000 of the polar diameter.
What he ment with the hair splitting thing is that there is no difference! Thus, trying to find a difference between them is like splitting hairs (ie, pointless and of little importance).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Gilgamesh, posted 05-12-2004 4:27 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-12-2004 4:45 PM Melchior has not replied
 Message 29 by jar, posted 05-12-2004 6:12 PM Melchior has not replied
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 27 of 355 (107690)
05-12-2004 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Cold Foreign Object
05-11-2004 6:03 PM


Hi WT,
Here is a summary of the reasons for a 13th century Exodus. PLease keep in mind that I am not saying there was an Exodus, only that IF it did happen, then this date is the most likely.
If you want to discuss any of the evidence a little more, then let me know.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-11-2004 6:03 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-12-2004 7:19 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-13-2004 7:51 PM Brian has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 28 of 355 (107742)
05-12-2004 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Melchior
05-12-2004 6:22 AM


Re: Support?
Thank You Melchior !

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 355 (107764)
05-12-2004 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Melchior
05-12-2004 6:22 AM


Re: Support?
Then the story is once again falsified as the height of the Great Pyramiad is not as the story claims.
There is just no way to get this DOG to hunt.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 30 of 355 (107770)
05-12-2004 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
05-11-2004 6:47 PM


Paulk excerpt:
______________________________________________________________________
Isaiah specifies an altar to the Lord. Exodus 20:25 - which specifies a rule on how to build an altar to the Lord is relevant.
"If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it."
______________________________________________________________________
The Isaiah verses in question clearly refer to the same object using two different words. This is done to further describe the object, then at the same time each descriptor is geographically located.
"altar" is identified to be in the midst/middle of Egypt.
"pillar"/monument is identified to be on the border thereof.
I have already paraphrased Dr. Scott's defintionS of the word "altar".
It is a place of death where sacrifice is made/objects are given to the deity for its exclusive use. The other defintion of "altar" is a monument or witness that testifies to something. Like when the Children of Israel crossed Jordan into Canaan, they were instructed to take twelve stones and build an altar/memorial to commemorate the Jordan crossing.
Clearly the latter meaning of "altar" applies here. The Exodus verse that you are citing plainly is referring to an altar that the first definition describes.
You need to recognize the dual meaning of "altar" and then show why/how the Exodus verse applies to the Isaiah verse. Obviously, you can disagree, but please to tell me why in lieu of what I have said/responded.
Here is what E. Raymond Capt says:
NILE-DELTA QUADRANT
The Great Pyramid of Gizeh stands at the geometric center and yet at the southern extremity of the Quadrant. The southern extremity, being the northenmost edge of the Giza plateau where the Great Pyramid stands looking over the fan-shaped sector of Egypt, was in ancient times at the boundary where the cultivated land touched the desert. This plateau was called Giza, which is the Arabic word for edge or border. It was this unusual location that first suggested the Great Pyramid was the monument spoken of in the Scriptures by Isaiah the prophet. Since the full official name of the Pyramid, the Great Pyramid of Giza, means, in English, the Great Pyramid of the Border, the answer to the apparently contradictory defintion of Isaiah is found in the Great Pyramid. The only spot on the face of the Earth that completely answers this description, both geometrically and geographically, is the precise place where the Great Pyramid actually stands. END CAPT EXCERPT. (The Great Pyramid Decoded, pages 12,13)
Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
And if the Great Pyramid is a monument then it is surely a monument to Khufu, the Pharoah.
______________________________________________________________________
Thats what Egpytologists tell us.
The Pyramid defies this from being true. This would make Khufu the greatest ego-maniac of all time ! As if he is going to build such a magnificent structure for entombment. The Pyramid in no way resembles a tomb. The passageways cannot evidence tomb - this is utterly ridiculous.
Go to the links that I have already provided and read the never ending list of scientific wonders contained in this building. The Pyramid already stood when Khufu reigned. The Egyptians could not of built this Pyramid. Only Divine providence can plausibly explain the Pyramid. The Isaiah verse and its numeric value equaling the height of the Pyramid is stunning evidence. Dr. Scott dismissed this as pure coincidence until too many coincidences became evidently true.
The only evidence that exists for Khufu building THIS Pyramid is the fact that it resides in Egypt. Maybe thousands of years from now someone will offer an opinion that Egypt built the Suez Canal.
E. Raymond Capt excerpt: (The Great Pyramid Decoded, page 11)
The Great Pyramid was placed in the exact center of all the land area of the world. Lines drawn through the north-south and east-west axis of the Pyramid divide equally the earth's terrain. The north-south axis (31 degrees 9' meridian east Greenwich) is the longest land meridian, and the east-west axis (29 degrees 58'51' north), the longest land parallel. That the Architect knew where to find the poles of the Earth is evidenced by the high degree of accuracy in orienting the (Pyramid) true north. Modern man's best effort, the Paris Observatory, is six minutes of degrees off true north. The Great Pyramid today is only off three minutes and that after 4200 years, due mainly to subsidence and/or continental drift.
END CAPT EXCERPT.
The continuing point is that the egyptians or any man could not of built this Pyramid without Divine help.
According to the evolutionary scenario man has evolved from a dumb caveman into this present highly intelligent state. Where or how did mankind obtain this kind of knowledge thousands of years ago ?
The only objective answer to this question is found when the evidence is compared to the claims of Scripture. These claims are corroborated by the Pyramid, and the Pyramid is corroborated by Scripture.
With this Pyramid being aligned to true north, which is almost an impossible feat, this alignment has the long descending passageway directly aligned with the North Star in 2141 B.C. Draconis was the North Star and I believe the procession of the equinoxes takes about 26,000 years to recycle. This makes the alignment of the Pyramid a once in 26,000 years miraculous acheivement.
In this particular year, Alcyone was also aligned with the scored lines. This year, 2141 B.C. becomes an unalterable benchmark to commense the alleged prophetic chronograph.
Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
2) where does the "sacred inch" come from and why should we use that for a year ?
______________________________________________________________________
I have already answered the Sacred inch is 1/500'000'000 of the Earth's polar axis from pole to pole.
BUT I WILL answer the remainder of this very valid question in my next reply to you.
Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
3) Why should position 5 be assumed to correspond to the Exodus ?
______________________________________________________________________
Like I already said, because, the first ascending passage perfectly symbolizes man's first "escape" from the influence of the Dragon/Satan VIA the miraculous deliverance from Egypt (granite plug being the type of the parting of the Red Sea), AND the giving of the Law which is also perfectly symbolized via having to stoop as you ascend. This and the fact that the ascending passage ends at 33 A.D. (death of Christ) obscenely evidences that the preceding date refers to the Exodus and the subsequent giving of Moses Law.
Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
4) Why not continue measuring down the descending passage to get the date corresponding to the well-shaft ?
______________________________________________________________________
Those measurements have been done and recorded. Just before the pit, which symbolizes hell, we are in the late 1800's - the infancy of Modern thought and Critical thinking/Darwinism etc.etc.
This lets man know where God places the generation that rejects Him.
Knowledge isn't evil or bad its just that certains have used their brilliance to dismiss the Divine and lead many astray because of the image of intelligence equating religious beliefs to be irrational.
The only hope of persons dwelling in these times is that Well Shaft which symbolizes the Resurrection to lift you out of the grip of the Dragon and its end result - hell. That Well Shaft is God throwing us a lifeline to lift us into the grace of the Grand Gallery.
Sorry for the long post - it just happened.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 05-12-2004 06:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2004 6:47 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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