Dating the Exodus

Actually, there is considerable evidence that suggests an Asiatic presence in Egypt. The reason why it is difficult to prove that much of this was Hebrew is due to the fact that Israelites would not have been referred to as such. They would have been referred to as either Asiatics or Apiru, and I’m sure in many cases slaves.Nevertheless, there have been remains uncovered by the Austrian Manfred Bietek at Tel el Daba (near Qantir) which betray a seemingly Israelite origin.This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 07:20 PMThis message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-13-2004 07:24 PMThis message has been edited by Hydarnes, 08-15-2004 08:10 AM

If it occured around c1400bc, then it would also correspond with the destruction of Jericho.

I am pretty familar with the Austrian Tel el Daba digs but I had not seen anything from them relating to Israel or Hebrews. They did find 60 or so mastaba type Hyksos burials not too long ago.Can you provided so links to the connection between Tel el Daba and Israelites?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Does anyone know if Archaeologists have found the city of Heshbon? Moses is said to have waged war with the Amorite King Sihon of that city and killed all his people. He did the same to the Amorite king Og of Bashan, who lived at the city of Ashtaroth and battled with moses at the city of Edrei (modern Da'ra in Syria). If there is any way that these sites could be dated, then it might be conceivible in theory to find an approximate age for the Exodus, or atleast a date where Moses was in that region.

Tall Hesban (Hesbon) has been extensively studied. It's in Jordan and was extensively studied between 1968 and 1976. Unfortunately, it then just sat for twenty years or more. In 1997 study with the possibility of resoration began again.Once again, it appears that occupation was from 1200 on up and not earlier in the 1500s and 1400s.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The reason this identification has been proposed by some is because of the fact that a ruins at Tell El Daba known as "Area F" not only exudes clearly asiatic features, but the architecture seems to resemble later Hebrew building design. As for direct evidence for this, I'm afraid I do not have it.But a lack in archaeological evidence for an Israelite occupation during the 15th century does not automatically prove an absence of such. And it would do skeptics well to remember that the location in Egypt known as Tell el-Maskhouta (identified as the biblical succoth, and the stronghold from which Egypt would launch her campaigns into Palestine and Syria) has yielded no archaeological evidence whatsoever for signs of military buildings, barracks, forts or any other such structures during the 18th and 19th dynasties, notwithstanding the fact that Egyptian records testify to their existence.So it's not always wise to make categorical placements solely based on perceived archaeological data, which simply cannot account for the material not yet discovered or completely erased over time.

"But a lack in archaeological evidence for an Israelite occupation during the 15th century does not automatically prove an absence of such."You are so right, Hydarnes. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.It's just that scientists can speak only to evidence, which is the nature of scientific method. They can only address the likelihood of things for which there is supporting evidence.They don't have the luxury of speculation and wishful thinking of non-scientists who have nothing to lose.

Of the 21 distinct levels, there seems to have been a major conquest around 1200, as shown in your link, but the final destruction was when the Assyrians finally destroyed the city in 732 BCE and it was not occupied again.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hi WT Sorry about the delay in reply I had to go off line suddenly last night.Can I say that people involved in the debate over the origins of ancient Israel HAVE to use the Bible as a source because it is the ONLY source we have for the prehistory of Israel. All the epic events surrounding the appearance of Israel onto the world stage are ONLY mentioned in the Bible, and with the Bible being the most influential book of all time, and with the special reverence in which most of the western world has afforded to the Bible, then it is impossible to investigate Israel’s origin without using the Bible.As far as I am concerned I love the Old Testament, it is a fantastic collection of ancient literature, but that is what the Bible is, it is literature. It isn’t a history book in the modern sense of the word, the 'history' in it is an ideological one, and as such anyone using it as a source has to apply the same critical approach as one would apply to any other ancient source.That the Bible has been edited many times and over a long period of time is not in dispute, Moses didn’t run around writing down everything as it happened. The narratives as we have them are a bringing together of different traditions, spliced by a redactor and presented as the one narrative, but the joins are sometimes easy to spot.But I do rely on the bible text, mainly because it is the only source that outlines Israel’s history, but also because my two areas of study are the OT and Syro-Palestinian archaeology, the two are inter-related. So, if the Hebrew Bible tells me that Jericho and Ai were destroyed at essentially the same time then I can look to my other subject for confirmation, when I look at that I see a big problem, they were never occupied at the same time, so how do I reconcile this? Perhaps the best way is to go back to the fact that the biblical accounts are late, the Book of Joshua was written long after 1400 or 1200 so it is possible that the triumphs of Joshua have been greatly exaggerated, this was a common feature of the ancients, even the Merneptah stele claims resounding victories that could not be literal.Source criticism and textual criticism are an integral part of this debate, the biblical text cannot be taken at face value, it has to be filtered to find possible historical evidence.Anyway, I hope you stick around this discussion, as I said before you are one of the few people who admit they either are wrong (I am not saying you are wrong here) or they don’t know enough about the subject to argue strongly enough. I have to admire you for that. And, remember that your opinion is a valid as any one else’s.Brian.

Hi Paul, For the biblical chronology to be correct, at face value, the conquest of canaan HAS to be around 1400. 1 Kings 6:1 demands a date of 1446 for the exodus, the conquest was 40 years later, so not only should Jericho, Ai, Gibeon and all the other sites mentioned in Joshua 1-12 show a destruction level at the same time, they should all show massive destruction levels at around 1400BCE, this is 100% at odds with the archaeological evidence.It is only because there is no way to harmonise the biblical accounts with the archaeological data that archaeologists (and I should add, in some cases, we are talking about the bible maximalists) have had to reinterpret the Bible narratives to fit the archaeological evidence. There is nothing wrong with altering your views of the bible based on external evidence of course, but there are so many people out there who are still under this delusion that the Exodus and Conquest as related in the Bible is completely accurate, and the truth is that scholars involved in the subject haven't taken this stance for about 80 years.Brian.This message has been edited by Brian, 08-14-2004 03:52 AM

HI Hydarnes, I know you said you were going to comment on Jericho on the thread about Jericho and Ai.Can I suggest that if you are thinking of using Bryant Woods material to argue your case that I can save you a lot of typing. Woods' arguments have been soundly deconstructed and shown to be completey untenable. If you are using someone else's material then that's fine, but if you wnt to use Woods then you are wasting your time. Let me take that back in fact, if you want to use Woods then fair enough, but I hope you have reinterpreted his finds. If you havent used Woods at all, then ignore my inane ramblings.Oh, and the other topic is about Jericho AND Ai, so when you prove Jericho was destroyed around 1400 can you also prove that Ai was occupied at that time, which is the topic of the thread.Brian.

There does seem to be some extraneous fluff upstring, but as a whole this seems to be an exceptionly well done topic. Which is no small trick, considering the nature of the other recent Exodus topics.Everyone, keep up the good work.DON'T REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE - THOSE REPLIES WOULD BE OFF-TOPIC (AS IS THIS MESSAGE )Adminnemooseus

---

Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
Thread Reopen Requests

Even with the to-and-fro I mentioned I would not like to argue for a date much earlier than 1350 BC for the destruction of Hazor.As for Jericho, from what I gather it was no more than a small village at 1400 BC. And neither Ai nor Gibeon show any signs of significant occupation at any time in the Late Bronze Age (1550-1150 BC).

Descendants of Noah's son Sem from second year of the Great Flood:
1)Arphaxad..............2625 BC (-35 years to son Sale)
2)Shelah................2590 " (-30)
3)Eber..................2560 " (-34)
4)Peleg.................2526 " (-30)
5)Reu...................2496 " (-32)
6)Serug.................2464 " (-30)
7)Nahor.................2434 " (-29)
8)Terah.................2405 " (-70)
9)Abram.................2335 " (-100)
10)Isaak................2235 " (-60)
11)Jacob................2175 " (-90)
12)Joseph...............2085 "Joseph sold into Egypt: 2067 BC
Joseph comes before the pharaoh: 2055 BC
The seven years of abundance in Egypt ended: 2048 BC
Second year of famine years: 2045 BC (Jacob with his famili came to Egypt. He was 130 years old).
Jews spent into Egypt 430 years: 2067 - 1637 BC

---

Petko N.Vidusa

Let me welcome you to EvC. Hope that you enjoy your stay and that we can learn much from you.The problem with that cronology is that it is based first on an event, the flood, that does not seem to have ever happened, and second, on the ages of people that have no evidence of their even having lived. Finally, Joseph, Joseph getting sold into slavery, Joseph going before Pharoah, and all the other dates and events are without any evidence as well.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion