Catastrophic Plate Tectonics - Fact or Fiction?

LOLThis may be the quote of the thread. I'm sorry but the whole CPT thing is simply a joke and your explanations are going from the ridiculous to the absolutely absurd.You say with a straight face that what is needed is a miracle. That should be enough to eliminate CPT from scientific consideration. But then you go even further and say that there might not need to be any additional miracles to return the miraculous to a normal state."radioactive decay normal --->insert miracle here --->Back to normal decay" is more than enough to doom CPT from the scientific consideration. When you can bring a theory that is testable and does not require "---> insert miracle here" come on back.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Chris says:"However the PROCESSES directly associated with CPT and runaway subduction do not require a change in the rate of radioisotopic decay."Well it's kind of academic, isn't it, because you admit that the two are correlated (and indeed they have to be because the time frames don't work out at all for CPT unless the decay rates are higher), so the heat generated by acceleratd decay must be dealt with. In fact it is worse, because if the heat from accelerated radiactive decay isn't needed for CPT that means there will be even more excess heat, doesn't it, because there is presumabely another source of energy driving CPT? That said, I don't agree with you. The best explanation we have at the moment for the source of energy for PT is radioactive decay so it stands to reason that if CPT is occurring the source of extra energy is accelerated decay. (Of course I reject accelerated decay and therefore CPT on the grounds that there is no natural explanation for how it could occur).This message has been edited by deerbreh, 07-11-2005 09:29 PM

Deerbreh, I diametrically disagree with your responses at this point and feel we are getting off topic. It is futile (for both of us) to entangle in questionable definitions of "parsimony", "bias", "theism", and the "ToE" (mega vs. micro).I brought up the "questionable" bio-ToEs because these are ON TOPIC:Unconvincing Macro-Bio-ToEs (and their geological fossilization *mechanisms*) seem "cancerously" woven into PT theory (if you will). I view that this biology seems to directly:1) Place PT theory on trial.
2) Place strata-fossilization theory on trial.
3) Allow for CPT theory as tenable.----------------------------------------------------------
--DPM, MSBS

Actually, from a biological perspective, I perceive more *miracles* would exist in stratas filled with *mega-evolved* fossils: i.e., mega-mutations, hopeful monsters, mutationalistic notions happening within NS, etc. These numerous biological miracles within the strata confuse me.A pathological question to consider, how long can a gene-pool last before it degrades and mutates into extinction? A million years?? Why, in just the last 20 years, human pathology has dramatically increased: Mankind seems to have gotten sicker than ever. Is the human gene pool quickly decaying, devolving, and dying. (You may argue cross-selection between human races seems to be significantly helping (genetic) pathology, recessive-gene anomolies, etc.; but median lifespans continue to shorten without drugs)Unconvincing Macro-Bio-ToEs (and their geological fossilization *mechanisms*) seem "cancerously" woven into PT theory (if you will). Thus, I view that this false biology alone seems to directly:1) Reject mega-evolved fossils in the earth's strata, as being essentially *overly-miraculous*
2) Refute current sediment-laying-strata-fossilization theory.
3) Allow for CPT hypothesis as tenable, despite an unexplainable event.
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--DPM, MSBS

Hi Chris,First I would like to correct the calculation I did in message 150, I simply messed it up last night. Sorry for that! Ok, second try.My objection deals with the 10^8 Joule which Baumgardner assigns to a kg of steam in his scenario. I think the maximum amount of energy a kg of steam can contain is limited by the temperature of the magma. According to your remark in your last posting, I assume a temperature of 1500 C. When we calculate the energy needed for heating a kg of water from 0 to this temperature, we obtain1) 420 kJ to heat one kg of water from 0 to 100C
2) 2260 kJ to turn one kg of water into steam
3) 2578 kJ to heat one kg of steam from 100 to 1500C (assuming constant pressure)That is 5258 kJ in total - and not 7259 kJ, as I wrote in message 150 - to heat one kg of water from 0 to 1500C. When we divide your estimation for the heat production ( 3*10^25 kJ) by this value, we obtain the amount of water needed to cool the lithosphere: 5,7*10^21 kg. That’s more than four times the mass of the actual ocean: 1,4 * 10 ^24 kg. In other words, there is not enough water in the ocean to cool the oceanic lithosphere to its current temperature.Another geological feature I expect to be kind of a problem for CPT are island chains created by a hot spot, for example the Hawaiian-Emperor Seamount Chain, a line of seamounts over a distance of more than 6000 km. As you can see in this link GEOL205: Island Chain there is a nice correlation between distance measured from Hawaii, the radiometric age of the seamounts and the current rate of plate movement. Under the assumptions of CPT we have a hotspot which wanders more than 16 km a day and manages to create guyots (Seamounts whose peaks have eroded and become a flat surface)-Bernd

The only real problem is that the things you mention exist only in the minds of Creationists. Why should there be any limit and whatever it evolved into would simply be the next step, wouldn't it?CPT is but another bad joke.This message has been edited by jar, 07-12-2005 05:45 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Once again you are way off topic. You are lucky I am not an administrator because you would be suspended for sure. You do not offer any arguments, just a lot of garbled assertions. And your assertions about the human gene pool are not supported by any evidence. Care to start a new topic on this and see if it passes muster with the administrators? It doesn't belong here.

I do not see the connection. Even without fossil evidence, plate tectonics is the only theory that explains the data. Please explain why PT hinges on the fossil record. I have to question your experience in science. In the real world, every theory is tested every day. As yet, geologists have not found the basics of PT to fail. Again, Philip, if it didn't work, we wouldn't use it. Please provide and example of another theory that actually works (and not just in the YEC fantasy world). NOw you are asking too much. Why would we waste time on a theory that has NO predictive capabilities and forces us to ignore huge tracts of scientific evidence? You are simply trying to bulldoze your way through this now, with demands and assertions. It truly appears that you have run out of ammunition and are now wasting our time. THis is where it gets tedious.

Admittedly,When it comes to flies (and cladistically lower life-forms) I can view NS keeping them "up and about" for thousands of years or something. So I’ll try not to limit your theory there.But the *higher* life-forms (i.e., mammals especially) are difficult for me (at this point) to expect to survive but a few millenia (let alone mutatationally evolve). Recall that mutational evolution to me is biological heresy. Such miracles don’t happen in a natural world. The bio-mega-ToE requires billions x billions of these impossible miracles.Biology per se does require at least one *miraculous* event (in my almost-YEC view/scheme/agenda, if you will). Like you, I’d prefer few to no miracles in biology. I’ll admit an omnipotent benevolent creator *did it* supernaturally, once or twice.Non-Catastrophical-PT seems (to me) a terrible joke. Fossil implantation mechanisms are currently a problem for me.

All of the biological stuff is really OT here but I would be glad to discuss it with you somewhere else.But to head back towards the topic, have you done what I asked of you yet? Did you get a copy of GoogleEarth and zoom in on Alberta, AL? Do you see the structures, formations, just east of you?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Alright, Edge.My experience in science (Doctor Professional | Pure & Natural Supplements) is limited to biology, medicine, and computer science. I am not a geologist and I have a lot to learn.I view that PT paradigms hinge directly and indirectly on paleontological history which 1) Indirectly seems to help *unify* the ToE, if you will making it appear credible.
2) Directly invoke fossil histories (Cenozoic through Precambrian)
3) Current PT paradigms I think are at least 750 million years. If life-forms are really only a few thousand years old, might that not seem inconsistent with them being in deeper (older) plates? Etc.Thus it appears to me that PT theory is cancerously infected by Mutational-NS-ToEs existing within the plates.Now I agree with you that PT theories might become consistent without invoking biology and paleontology (if that is what you suggest). But they currently seem to me to invoke life sciences.May I question your science background?For my benefit and confusion, especially if you know geology, maybe you could briefly explain:
1) The credible mechanism of fossil-implantation (with or without catastrophic events).
2) If you really believe a credible PT theory, SANS biology, can exist.
3) Would you allow radiometric or other dating techniques (vs. fossils) to date the plates?Thank you for all your time and feedback.(DPM, MS Biomedical science, BA psychology, AS-Electr. Eng. Techn.)

Thanks Jar,I did look up GoogleEarth (last week) and attempted to repeatedly download it ... but failed. Sorry I didn't tell you.(I had this problem before; I'll have to try again on another computer or something. This computer is 1.5 years old.)

I've been reprimanded before (when I unscrupulously stated Behe was a YEC (again, I’m very sorry for that)); but I don’t recant here.I merely suggest: If biological YEC is true, CPT might fit. Also, CPT is a YEC model by definition. Do you not want a YEC’s feedback? Is this way OT?Granted, I’m a stubborn physician-YEC trying to fit geological PT and/or CPT theory into my biomedical science.As for being suspended: That would be an honor, as long as I am trying to speak science-truth in politeness and respect to my belabored colleagues here. I personally don’t want to offend you, science, admins, lurkers, and appreciate your patience.

You don't need any biological data to falsify YEC. All you need to do is look just east of you. Or, for that matter, go out at night and look at the sky.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

How is your claim (without a scintilla of evidence) of degradation of the human gene pool remotely related to CPT? Yes, they are both claims of YECers but using that yardstick, we would have no specific topics at all, just a wide open free for all discussion of YEC vs evolution. This topic is about possible mechanisms FOR CPT, it is not about the age of the earth except tangentally, it is not about fossil formation, it is not about the quality of the human gene pool. As I said, if you want to discuss these things, start your own thread or find a thread where they fit. They don't belong here. (Didn't I say that at least twice already?). Also, I don't care how many degrees you have nor what they are in. What I do care about is if you stay on topic and back up your assertions with something that a scientist would agree is evidence.