Is the concept of The Fall reasonable?

This suggests that we do not comprehend good and evil. If we don't understand what is good and what is evil, then "sin" is a meaningless concept. If we do not know good and evil when we see it, then we have the moral status of cows.

Firstly I'd echo the sense of wonder Faith expresses on discovering the extent and significance of the Fall. Here is a unifying explanation - the very same thing that modern man seeks when he talks of a "theory of everything" - an explanation for why it is as it is. As soon as one grasps the Fall, all sorts of pieces of an interminable, yet much pondered jigsaw fall into place. Even pieces one wasn't all that concerned about to be honest. Even were it not true it would be stunning in its commentary on a central quest of mankind - to explain it all. Not bad for a gang of primitive "goat herders" I'm at a loss to think how one should proceed with such proposal set up. Reasonable is as reasonable does. And for those locked into a materialistic explanation for everything "until given cause to think otherwise (although I can't say on what basis I should ever expect a reason to be possible - materialistically speaking)" the Fall can never be reasonable - it requires a door to be opened into the supernatural. A door which is firmly nailed shutOn the other hand, anyone who was prepared to crack the door open and permit supernatural entry would find themselves subject to a deluge against which a reasoned argument countering the Fall could not hope to stand Just an aside but I don't think the doctrine would imply "arbitarily". As far as everthing goes it is acting precisely according to it fallen nature (if it is a beast or plant) and/or according to the fallen laws of nature (if it results in volcanos and earthquakes). Not even man acts arbitarily it would seem. We act according to our fallen nature - true - but in our case culpability is included. Which puts a little bit of a spin on things.The way I see it would be similar to a perfect mechanism, such as a clock, being smacked against a wall. It still functions, not as it was intended granted, but neither in an arbitary fashion: the bent minute hand rubbing against the bent face causes it to slow somewhat between the hours of 6 and 7 perhaps and the shattered glass make it difficult to tell precisely what the indicated, if inaccurate, time is. But arbitary, no.

Why are you at a loss? It either explains the human conditon or it doesn't explain it. If it explains it, it means it's all our fault--my and your fault. So when Hurricane Rita detroyed my brother's house (to pick out something rather minor), that was my fault--also your fault. It was the fault of everyone who ever lived on the face of the earth, except, I suppose, Jesus Christ.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-19-2006 07:41 PM

Robin, well yeah.... but then again so could Kurt Vonnegut jr.'s The Sirens of Titan. If you want to throw evidence and science out the window then you are pretty much free to come up with any explanation that you prefer. But why?lfen

Jar,Maybe, but there those ancedotal stories of Dolphins saving people. I'd like to believe them.Human culture does provide a way to continue through language and social institutions the compassionate behaviours you reference of course. I suspect that suppost helps spread and support them.lfen

I've recently been studying narcissistic personality disorder and this is a pretty good description of the way narcissists relate to the world.I recommend this book to everyone because you will assurdedly meet with narcissists in the course of daily living if not in your theology.The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists: Coping with the One-Way Relationship in Work, Love, and Family: Books: Eleanor Paysonlfen

I first encountered the appreciation of this in the writings of Fritz Perls as representing the genius of the Jewish priest. Once you convince people that it's their fault they then blame themselves instead of God and his priest class. Your job is insured. You are beyond criticism. If good things happen, God did it. If bad things happen it's your fault. In other words, if good things happen pay the priests. If bad things happen pay the priests.It's never the fault of my God and as his representive you can't blame our religion. Obey and suffer long enough and maybe good things will happen. Makes for a very enduring franchise.lfen

Curiosity.Also, I've been a little bit disappointed with the evidence for evolution so far as I've studied it recently. All we really have are fossils. The rest is just circumstantial. If evolution is true, such-and-such would have to be the case. Such-and-such is in fact the case. That sort of thing.And then of course there's the riddle of "mind."And the fact that moral questions FEEL real, not subjective.Evolution is the key question. And if not evolution, then what?There would have to be a Fall.

Right: if God created man and could tell the future at the time of creation, then he saw The Fall coming, but did nothing to stop it. He created us to fail. So I think we can safely say that God is one evil mofo. That is, unless God isn't omniscient, but Christians who belive in The Fall don't seem to like that idea.Still, there are some imperfections in the world which The Fall does not reasonably explain, such as junk DNA sequences which are shared across species.

there only has to be a fall if the christian god is the real one, and he in fact created the earth without death. this is not a claim supported by evidence or the scriptures. it is supported by medieval novels and catholic dogma.but what if there is a different god at work here? there need be no fall. humans are created with the capacity for good and the capacity for evil. both are relative human constructs. i kill someone, that's bad. i save children from poverty, that's good. i find a cure for cancer so that i can make lots of money... is that good or bad? it's all a relative judgement. we give true 'glory' when we do good, especially unselfishly. but how is that a objective truth? how about if i kill someone to prevent a thousand deaths?the idea of objective, absolute truth is constructed by people convinced of their own worth, and self-righeous superiority. the fall was invented by paul to sell his new religion which had very little to do with the jesus they claimed. it was compounded by the guilt fees of the catholic church and milton's tales. you want a reasonable explaination for human behavior? look at the behavior of bonobo chimpanzees and put the bible away.

And what sort of god would this be? Some romantic Pagan deity?

I think the "primitive" religions may come closest to the truth, if there is a God.The Abrahamic God seems puny, all tied down with doctrine and dogma; He's all sussed out and all trussed up.No Infinite Mystery there, no awe even the size of the starry sky.

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Why the Biblical Christian GOD. There's no Fall in the Bible. No sign of a Fall in the Universe. No sign of a Fall in the Human Condition.The concept of a Fall is not only unreasonable, it's unsupportable.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

well. any old non-christian god will do. they all have creation stories. and there's very little romantic about most pagan deities. but i'm not the person to ask about those.

It all depends on what you mean by 'the fall'. If you beleive that there is an 'original sin' that 'stains' someoen even at birth, then I think it is a bankrupt and repugnant position. If you mean that because
of the 'fall in rank' of Adam, and we are effected because we were not 'born' in the same position of honor, well I disagree with it, but it is
at least not this concept that promotes how 'debased' man is.