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Author Topic:   The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 302 (292281)
03-05-2006 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ReverendDG
03-05-2006 3:06 AM


Reptilian Rationality
The snake and the dragon are both symbolic. It would appear, however, that they both represent the same vibe. Its that pesky dungeons and dragons freethinking vibe that never wants to listen to Major Dad!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ReverendDG, posted 03-05-2006 3:06 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 32 of 302 (292285)
03-05-2006 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
03-05-2006 3:09 AM


Re: Reptilian Rationality
rofl, yeah i think the snake symbolizes free thought and sometimes the chaos it causes.
The idea that it could be satan is just, not really bibical unless you want to enforce revelations on to genesis, you have to do that to get snake = satan, since genesis doesn't ever talk about satan, though enoch does talk about sataniel i think thats the name of the bad guy to god the hebrews had,but historically they dropped it all

This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 33 of 302 (292307)
03-05-2006 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
03-05-2006 3:09 AM


Re: Reptilian Rationality
If only that were the reason I could not bring myself to getting deeper into D&D (at 14)when offered, despite it going up the pole in NY and behind the gate in NJ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 03-05-2006 3:09 AM Phat has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 34 of 302 (292310)
03-05-2006 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
03-05-2006 2:57 AM


Re: Snake or Satan?
quote:
This in and of itself does not indicate that the serpant was one of the wild animals that the LORD had made. It only indicates that the serpant was smarter than the animals---in a devious sort of way.
You can go that route if you want, but it is rather fruitless.
New Century Version
Now the snake was the most clever of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day the snake said to the woman, "Did God really say that you must not eat fruit from any tree in the garden?"
Holman Christian Stardard
Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"
Good News Translation
Now the snake was the most cunning animal that the Lord God had made. The snake asked the woman, "Did God really tell you not to eat fruit from any tree in the garden?"
At face value, the A&E story is an ancient fable, using imagery familiar to the people of the time.
Example: Now the fox is more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.
My audience knows what a fox is and they know that the fox is a wild animal.
The storyteller's audience also knew what a snake was and knew that it was an animal. The fact that it was talking is part of the storytelling.
quote:
So what is it about the bad vibes betwixt the offspring of a mere snake and the offspring of a woman?
In our wonderfully civilized environment, we don't have the problem of snakes crossing our path very often.
Snakes are a creature we don't always see until we have trespassed their space. This isn't a problem unless you are in an area with poisonous snakes, which I think the Hebrews were.
Since children don't really pay attention to where they are running, I can understand why women would hate snakes. It was a hazard of the times.
I never went walking through tall grass or thick woods around the farm with no ankle protection.
A neighbor lady where I grew up hated snakes so much she went looking for them and then killed them. She went blackberry picking with us one year. These were wild blackberries, so we found the bushes scattered over a huge pasture. Our favorite spot was a group of 6 or 7 bushes that made a semicircle. We could walk into the middle of it and pick. She decided to go into the middle. While she was in there picking she asked my father if he ever saw any snakes in the bushes. My father told her no. Then after a few seconds he added, "Of course, I never looked for them." She came flying out of those bushes. We were laughing, but she stayed to the outside.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 35 of 302 (292311)
03-05-2006 7:41 AM


Cain was "of the evil one"
The Apostle John tells us that Cain was of the evil one.
"... we should love one another, not as Cain was of the evil one and slew his brother..." (First John 3:12)
Who is "the evil one" who instigated Cain to murder his brother (Genesis 4:8)?
My vote is that the Apostle John was refering to Satan. And I don't think he meant that Cain was a little baby snake.
It is too bad that some readers cannot spiritually ascertain certain themes in the Bible.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 07:43 AM

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 36 of 302 (292313)
03-05-2006 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jaywill
03-05-2006 7:41 AM


Re: Cain was "of the evil one"
The thing is that the writer of Genesis did not think that there was an 'Evil' one that inspired Cain to kill his brother.
The concepts of someone 700+ years later really don't have much impact on the person who originally wrote it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jaywill, posted 03-05-2006 7:41 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 37 of 302 (292320)
03-05-2006 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ramoss
03-05-2006 8:10 AM


Re: Cain was "of the evil one"
Sorry Ramoss. That post was accidentally addressed to you. But just the same ...
The thing is that the writer of Genesis did not think that there was an 'Evil' one that inspired Cain to kill his brother.
I think the real "writer" of Genesis is the Spirit of God. That is the same writer of the epistle of First John. One God speaking through two different prophetic authors accross the span of many centries.
Secondly, the writer of Genesis did too think "Evil" inspired Cain to kill his brother. The writer called it "sin"
"And Jehovah said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, SIN is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him" (Genesis 4:6,7) (my emphasis)
God warns Cain that sin is crouching. Only a living thing would be discribed as crouching, poised to attack, stealthily positioned to take advantage of the situation. Sin is discribed as a personified evil beast crouching and ready to dominate Cain's heart.
Cain failed to excercise self control over his envy. And the evil crouching power of sin flooded his heart. He rose up and did Satan's will and murdered the true seeker of God, Abel.
So the Apostle John says that Cain was of the evil one. John also rightly tells us that the Devil has sinned from the beginning:
"He who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning." (First John 3:8)
The devil has sinned continually from ancient times and begets sinners that they might practice sin with him.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 08:43 AM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 03-05-2006 10:28 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 39 by ReverendDG, posted 03-05-2006 10:36 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 03-05-2006 11:09 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 53 by arachnophilia, posted 03-06-2006 12:26 AM jaywill has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 38 of 302 (292329)
03-05-2006 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jaywill
03-05-2006 8:42 AM


Homiletics
Unfortunately we are going to have problems continuing this discussion because IMO 1 John is a homiletic writing (written as a vehicle for conveying a predetermined concept or lesson). These types of writings or lessons very often go against the plain sense reading of the Biblical text. They project a meaning onto the text they use.
This does not lessen the importance of what is said in 1 John. What it does mean is that no matter what meaning the author of 1 John projects onto OT text, it doesn't change the plain sense reading of the text and it doesn't make the snake Satan.
There is nothing wrong with homiletics as long as one realizes the difference between that and the plain sense reading of the text.
Even today. No matter what meaning a preacher projects onto the NT text, it doesn't change the plain sense reading of the text.
In a nutshell, what you find me arguing against are homiletics presented as God's word or fact.
So what you have shown so far are homiletics projecting Satan onto the snake of the garden. Plain sense reading of the Genesis text does not support your projection.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jaywill, posted 03-05-2006 8:42 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by jaywill, posted 03-17-2006 1:05 PM purpledawn has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 39 of 302 (292332)
03-05-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jaywill
03-05-2006 8:42 AM


Re: Cain was "of the evil one"
God warns Cain that sin is crouching. Only a living thing would be discribed as crouching, poised to attack, stealthily positioned to take advantage of the situation. Sin is discribed as a personified evil beast crouching and ready to dominate Cain's heart.
oh come on jat you are just making stuff up, its a phrase expressing that he is not making effort to control his wrong urges, you even say it but you add in somesort of animorphic expression of sin?
Cain failed to excercise self control over his envy. And the evil crouching power of sin flooded his heart. He rose up and did Satan's will and murdered the true seeker of God, Abel.
the story is about doing something agenst gods will, not about satan, satan is a servent of god, so he can''t do anything
So the Apostle John says that Cain was of the evil one. John also rightly tells us that the Devil has sinned from the beginning:
do you have any biblical evidence that he sinned from the begining? other than john of course? like "satan did sin, blah blah blah", everything you claim is imposing your view on the text.
The authors of genesis didn't believe in satan, theres only one god for them, a representation of evil wouldn't make sense with one god

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 302 (292341)
03-05-2006 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
03-05-2006 3:09 AM


It's a story
Phat writes:
The snake and the dragon are both symbolic.
I don't think the snake is symbolic. He's really just a foil.
If Shakespeare had written Genesis, Eve would have solilloquized, "Methinks I shall not surely die." Instead, the writer(s) of Genesis introduced a new character to advance the plot.
The snake is the Sam Gamgee of Genesis. Frodo needed Sam to talk to and Eve needed somebody to talk to. But the only other somebody around was Adam, who had another twist to introduce in the next scene.
A new character was needed and that character could only be an animal. It could have been a talking shrew or a talking jellyfish - but people already hate snakes, so it was easy to make him the "bad guy". (Imagine how different the story would be if a cute little puppy said, "You shall not surely die.")
Snakes are also weird, being legless and all, so the explanation for that is thrown in as a bonus track.
Now, the point of the story is that we have the knowledge of Good and Evil. It doesn't particularly matter where we got it from.
We have the knowledge of Good and Evil - we inherited it from Adam and Eve. It is our responsibility to do what is good and avoid what is evil. Putting the blame on a snake (or on any outside source) completely negates the message of the story.
If we see the snake as a plot device rather than an "adversary", the message makes sense.

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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 302 (292344)
03-05-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jaywill
03-05-2006 8:42 AM


No "evil one" - just us
Jaywill writes:
Sin is discribed as a personified evil beast crouching and ready to dominate Cain's heart.
Personification is when something that is not a person is given human qualities.
The "sin" that was personified is not an external entity. It is within us - the knowledge of Good and Evil (the capacity to do evil and the responsibility for our own actions).

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 42 of 302 (292459)
03-05-2006 4:44 PM


Isaiah Spoke Rightly
Isaiah the prophet spoke rightly that some are under a spirit of spiritual sleep and simply cannot percieve the meanings of prophetic scriptures. Some who are looking to traditional Judaism to obscure the deeper truths of the Bible seem to me to be under the slumbering spiritual sleep that God said He would pour out on Israel.
You can't see that from the beginning God has been in a battle over the earth and man with His enemy Satan. And this profound truth He has sought to communicate to us in many ways.
"For Jehovah has poured out upon you a spirit of deep sleep And has shut your eyes, the prophets; And your heads, the seers, He has covered.
And all the vision will be to you like the words of a book that has been sealed, which when they give to him who is literate, saying, Please read this, he will say, I am not able to, for it is sealed.
Then the book will be given to him who is illiterate, saying, Please read this, and he will say, I am illiterate.
And the Lord said, Because this people draws near with their mouth, And with their lips they honor Me, Yet they remove their heart far from Me, and their fear for Me is a commandment of men merely learned;
Therefore, indeed, I will once again do something wondrous with this people, something wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the understanding of those who understand will be hidden." (Isaiah)
Some of you skeptics are just under a spirit of deep sleep so that you cannot discern rightly spiritual truths from the Bible. I would encourage you to pray and ask God for His mercy. And that not that you would agree with me but that you wouldn't lean on your on understanding but seek revelation from God.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 04:45 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 04:47 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 04:50 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 03-05-2006 7:38 PM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 302 (292479)
03-05-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jaywill
03-05-2006 4:44 PM


Re: Isaiah Spoke Rightly
jaywill writes:
Some of you skeptics are just under a spirit of deep sleep so that you cannot discern rightly spiritual truths from the Bible.
Do you think you could keep the pseudopsychobabble to yourself and address the topic at hand?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 03-05-2006 4:44 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jaywill, posted 03-05-2006 8:21 PM ringo has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 302 (292524)
03-05-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jaywill
03-05-2006 4:44 PM


When All Else Fails
quote:
Some of you skeptics are just under a spirit of deep sleep so that you cannot discern rightly spiritual truths from the Bible. I would encourage you to pray and ask God for His mercy. And that not that you would agree with me but that you wouldn't lean on your on understanding but seek revelation from God.
When all else fails, pray for those who disagree with you.
quote:
You can't see that from the beginning God has been in a battle over the earth and man with His enemy Satan. And this profound truth He has sought to communicate to us in many ways.
My personal revelation still disagrees with you. If that truth is there, the text will speak for itself, without embellishments.
Right now all we have in Genesis is a talking snake.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jaywill, posted 03-05-2006 4:44 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 45 of 302 (292533)
03-05-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
03-05-2006 7:38 PM


Re: When All Else Fails
When all else fails, pray for those who disagree with you.
I agree with this. This is a most biblical principal, both of the Old and New Testament.
Actually, I pray in agreement just as much. That is when I know that I am presenting the truth of the Bible.
I don't wait until failure to start praying.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 08:13 PM

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