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Author Topic:   Believing it is not proving it
Admin
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From: EvC Forum
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Message 151 of 300 (300306)
04-02-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
04-02-2006 12:47 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
Faith writes:
nwr quoting robinrohan writes:
The assertion "one cannot be a Christian and an evolutionist..."
This was never said on this thread...
Nwr is quoting Robinrohan's Message 124 from this very thread just 8 messages before your own and only a few hours ago. In other words, it *was* said on this thread. It is the clarification from Robinrohan that was hoped for. Please allow the discussion to continue.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 12:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:33 PM Admin has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 152 of 300 (300310)
04-02-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Admin
04-02-2006 3:13 PM


No it is not a misunderstanding
Nwr is quoting Robinrohan's Message 124 from this very thread just 8 messages before your own and only a few hours ago. In other words, it *was* said on this thread. It is the clarification from Robinrohan that was hoped for. Please allow the discussion to continue.
What Robin said in Message 124 was:
No, the argument did not change. It's exactly the same as it was originally. When I say that one cannot be a Christian and an evolutionist, I meant, of course, that the two positions are logically incompatible.
In other words it was not his own words, he was correcting that misreading and in fact did not say it himself except to repeat nwr's phrasing. I think RR should not have used nwr's phrasing, should NEVER allow that phrasing to stand, because the opposition is apparently unable to recognize that RR has NEVER been talking about belief, and they jump on that casual phrasing as if it were about belief no matter how illogical it is that they continue to think so. That is simply the straw man abuse that is the whole reason for this flap in the first place that has been identified over and over again to deaf ears.
ABE: And for pete's sake that message is Robin's STATING THAT HE NEVER MEANT ANYTHING ABOUT BELIEF. Which OUGHT to have been obvious from the beginning anyway.
The problem is that it is a casual way of saying that the two are incompatible, knowing that people do nevertheless believe it. I answered nwr's misreading of it that way already, and it has been answered the umpteen times when others have said it too, by Robin and occasionally a few others as well. It is ridiculous to think one would ever say that a person couldn't BELIEVE the two things. Obviously he is saying they are incompatible. And that is what he is AGAIN saying in message 124.
And I strongly protest your taking the Admin role to chide me about a completely on-topic, relevant statement, and indeed merely a restating of the central point of the thread, which is exactly the same thing that RR has been saying. If you want me to take it to the Moderation thread I will.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-02-2006 03:34 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-02-2006 03:37 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-02-2006 03:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Admin, posted 04-02-2006 3:13 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Admin, posted 04-02-2006 3:51 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 153 of 300 (300313)
04-02-2006 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Percy
04-02-2006 2:53 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
It seems to me that when you say "one cannot be a Christian and an evolutionist" that you are using your view of what it means to be a Christian.
Obviously.
In your view, a Christian does not believe in a God who "created a situation in which, in order to survive, life forms must torture, kill, and eat other life forms".
That is his view, yes.
I think there are many people who don't share your view of what it means to be a Christian.
Obviously. Obviously. Obviously. Obviously. DOZENS HERE AT EVC FOR STARTERS. You feel you need to INFORM him of this obvious fact? It is exactly what he is talking about.
There are other very common views of Chrisianity in which it is not considered contradictory to accept evolution. Catholocism and the Methodists come to mind.
That is absolutely correct and thoroughly familiar. Why do you feel you need to inform Robin of this? Obviously he can't have failed to notice how commonly the idea is held by Christians.
What he's saying is that they are logically in the wrong to do so.
If you want to refute that you have to stop talking about what people believe, which is irrelevant and refutes nothing Robin has said. You can only refute it by discussing the definition of Christian belief. And that was what the other threads were about. This thread is about the illogic of trying to refute Robin's position by pointing out there are people who believe it is not contradictory to be a Christian and support evolution. And you just committed that illogic yourself.
And in fact his statement about what makes the views contradictory is also logically correct, as the idea that God created evolution implies that God "created a situation in which, in order to survive, life forms must torture, kill, and eat other life forms".
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-02-2006 03:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Percy, posted 04-02-2006 2:53 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Asgara, posted 04-02-2006 3:50 PM Faith has replied
 Message 157 by jar, posted 04-02-2006 3:57 PM Faith has replied
 Message 159 by Percy, posted 04-02-2006 4:01 PM Faith has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 154 of 300 (300317)
04-02-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
04-02-2006 3:46 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
What he's saying is that they are logically in the wrong to do so.
The issue is that only if you subscribe to that one particular version of christianity is the position illogical.
If you do not share that view it isn't illogical to accept evolution along with christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:56 PM Asgara has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 155 of 300 (300318)
04-02-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
04-02-2006 3:33 PM


Re: No it is not a misunderstanding
Faith writes:
I think RR should not have used nwr's phrasing, should NEVER allow that phrasing to stand...
Then you have a beef with RR. RR posted it, and nwr has every right to reply to it.
Faith writes:
If you want me to take it to the Moderation thread I will.
If you'd like to discuss moderator behavior then please take it to the moderation thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:59 PM Admin has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 156 of 300 (300320)
04-02-2006 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Asgara
04-02-2006 3:50 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
What he's saying is that they are logically in the wrong to do so.
The issue is that only if you subscribe to that one particular version of christianity is the position illogical.
That is correct. But how can anyone deny that to believe God created evolution implies that God created the situation of suffering and death of living things? And that this is incompatible with the Biblical God? Therefore I think it is open and shut that Robin has successfully shown that evolution and the Biblical God are incompatible and that all those who accept evolution are denying the Biblical God even though they say they believe in Him, and are in fact believing in a contradiction as Robin has argued.
If you do not share that view it isn't illogical to accept evolution along with christianity.
Only if you make up your own version of Christianity. Evolution is clearly incompatible with the traditional Bible-based faith. Sure, you can make up your own if you like that is not incompatible, but it is not the traditional Christian faith and this is what Robin has shown. Even though Methodists and Catholics accept evolution, they are doing so illogically, as it is incompatible with the traditional teachings of Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Asgara, posted 04-02-2006 3:50 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Asgara, posted 04-02-2006 4:02 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 300 (300322)
04-02-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
04-02-2006 3:46 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
The rest of Robin's assertion (that he has made todate) are addressed in an exchange between robin and me beginning in Message 140.
I will be happy to discuss any others as any of you bring them up, but as it stands now, I feel all he has posted so far have been adequately refuted.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 4:15 PM jar has replied
 Message 175 by robinrohan, posted 04-02-2006 9:33 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 158 of 300 (300323)
04-02-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Admin
04-02-2006 3:51 PM


Re: No it is not a misunderstanding
Then you have a beef with RR. RR posted it, and nwr has every right to reply to it.
I'm sure RR thinks he shouldn't have to correct something so obvious.
And nobody said nwr couldn't reply to it, but he made a straw man of it, which was my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Admin, posted 04-02-2006 3:51 PM Admin has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 159 of 300 (300324)
04-02-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
04-02-2006 3:46 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
Faith writes:
This thread is about the illogic of trying to refute Robin's position by pointing out there are people who believe it is not contradictory to be a Christian and support evolution.
It has been refuted to the extent it has been established. Meaning it hasn't been much established, and it hasn't been much refuted.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:46 PM Faith has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 160 of 300 (300325)
04-02-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
04-02-2006 3:56 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
But even YOU believe that "God created the situation of suffereing and death of living things"...
Even if you claim that it is human folly that led to the fall, the situation stands that god allowed, accepted, set up, knew in advance...that the fall would entail "suffereing and death"
And if you say that none of the above paragraph is correct then you do not accept omniscience or omnipotence and you have the same problem you claim that everyone else does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 3:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 4:12 PM Asgara has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 161 of 300 (300331)
04-02-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Asgara
04-02-2006 4:02 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
No, Asgara, I have never equated the Creation with the Fall. I know it is popular for others here to make that equation but I consider it to be wrong, and I also don't agree with your definition of omniscience and omnipotence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Asgara, posted 04-02-2006 4:02 PM Asgara has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 162 of 300 (300334)
04-02-2006 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
04-02-2006 3:57 PM


It is you who have been refuted, jar.
There's nothing to discuss, jar. You have been refuted.
A brand new conundrum has been established by EvC. When a tree falls in the sight of all assembled, it still didn't happen and the very few who say it happened are called wrong. Weird. Happens over and over. Emperor's new clothes. Nice to have proved to myself that this is what is happening at least.
Cheers.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-02-2006 04:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 04-02-2006 3:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Admin, posted 04-02-2006 4:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 164 by jar, posted 04-02-2006 4:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 166 by Brian, posted 04-02-2006 4:28 PM Faith has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 163 of 300 (300336)
04-02-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
04-02-2006 4:15 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
Faith writes:
A brand new conundrum has been established by EvC. When a tree falls in the sight of all assembled, it still didn't happen and the very few who say it happened are called wrong. Weird. Happens over and over. Emperor's new clothes. Nice to have proved to myself that this is what is happening at least.
If you'd like to discuss the topic, please do so. If you're only here to critisize then please stop posting in this thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 4:15 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 164 of 300 (300337)
04-02-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
04-02-2006 4:15 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
There's nothing to discuss, jar. You have been refuted.
I'm having a hard time find the post where that happened. Perhaps you can point me to it, as I pointed you towards the exchange that began in Message 140.
Or...
you can declare victory and retire.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 4:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 04-02-2006 4:27 PM jar has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 165 of 300 (300338)
04-02-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by jar
04-02-2006 4:25 PM


Re: its a big misunderstanding
deleted.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-02-2006 04:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 04-02-2006 4:25 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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