Perceptions of Reality

That's not an aspect of reality. It's just a conflict of opinions.If forty people from twenty-nine different cultural backgrounds and seventeen different religions can agree on what's healty for breakfast, that's consensus. That has a chance of being objective.

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Ringo:Too small a sample in other words...But it is a concensus! Whether or not it reflects reality is not relevant to the sample size. But as you see below, I will compromise with you on this point.Ringo:The law of large numbers... yes. I learned it in the insurance industry as an agent a few years back.I don't buy the consensus argument as an extreme, but it is an indicator.You agree with Lewis then in that regard? (C. S. Lewis / 'Mere Christianity')So, do you have it in you to compromise as well... or is this just a game being played by a child who thinks too highly of himself?

I didn't say anything about "reflecting reality". I said that we can be more confident of our version of reality if it tallies with the consensus. The whole consensus idea is just a safety valve, a filter to eliminate as much individual error as possible, to avoid being a slave to one's own delusions. Doesn't matter a bit whether or not you buy it. If you have specific objections to it, let's hear 'em. When Lewis becomes a member of this forum, I'll comment on his ideas.

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Are you familliar with Nator's Admin avatar?What a waste...

Are you ever going to demonstrate to Ringo why you think justice is an absolute?

RickJB:Because like you... I demand justice. I expect an account for your actions. I expect an explanation in truth for why you say what you say. I assume such justice to be an actual reflection of the nature of reality (God).And, I did explain this to Ringo... he waved it off as a non sequitor. he just wishes it away.But time is ticking...Let him wave off the justice that abides upon him on the day of his judgment. The same will apply to you if you don't start using the mind God gave you.That is what I believe. It is probably a laughable and empty threat to most here.But it is my perception of reality, and as Ringo said, 'Who has the right to tell me any different?'Listen to me... We have no rights under the assumptions of naturalism other than what we bestow upon each other. They are not intrinsic. A human life has no intrinsic value. We must fight tooth and claw for such things. My rights, at the expense of anothers..By what foundation based in reality do you demand the justice implied in your question? Survival of the fittest? If so, that's not justice... it is pure power, cause, and effect.So you have asked nothing. You're only positioning for control. You don't have the right to ask me anything because of what you believe.The reason I answer you is motivated by an entirely different worldview.I believe in the truth. And I believe I am speaking the truth. And I believe you should recognize it as such. And I concede to your intrinsic and God given right to choose whether or not to respect it as such.You can do as you wish. But Justice is default reality. It is absolute. As John Polkinghorne, the Quantum physics professor (and Christian) at Cambridge said, 'Somebody has to pay'.I for one am astounded.... that Reality would come in the flesh and pay my debt for me. I dare not wish justice upon myself...Only grace. Unearned and undeserved forgiveness.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Your demands and expectations do not, in any way, make anything an absolute. Once again, you admit it is only an assumption.What could be less "absolute" than one person's assumption?

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Ringo:I didn't say they did. I said it is so, despite me. As you have implied, reality is absolute. I have no power to change it. I can only submit to what is right despite what I wish 'right' to be.Ringo:Another persons assumption that assumptions themselves are invalid. Such a person exalts and opposes himself...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

On the contrary, that's exactly what you said:

quote:

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Because like you... I demand justice. I expect an account for your actions. I expect an explanation in truth for why you say what you say. Message 216

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You said that justice is an absolute "because" you demand it - i.e. it is "caused" by your demand. I never said that assumptions are invalid. I said that you admitted that "justice is absolute" is only your assumption:

quote:

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I assume such justice to be an actual reflection of the nature of reality (God). Message 216

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Please be more careful with your words and try no to contradict yourself in consecutive posts.

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Good grief!

Absolutely false. People deny the truth all the time: look at how many people deny that the age of the earth is much more that a few thousand years old. Heck there are still people that believe in a flat earth. Or you are fishing for something that isn't real. A shadow of a phantom fantasy? How would you know? Then why isn't their life on the moon? Why aren't the very rocks alive?Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Truth itself..

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Which includes a lot of things we know to be false, such as a young earth.Or that there is an absolute morality.

[qs]Archer:Be more specific...It is this question that delivered me. It was a long journey from here to there. But you must answer it for yourself as I did. And as we would expect, reality only allows one ultimate answer.

Archer: Truth itself. That is specific. Your question has been answered. Reality is the ultimate answer. Anything else is not real.You pay insufficient attention to the necessity, Rob, of distinguishing between reality and our ideas of it. Your request for 'specifics' is a request for ideas about it. That's where you want to move the discussion.To discuss ideas, though, is to leave the subject you introduced. You asked for an absolute. Ideas are not absolute.A picture of reality you can carry around in your head is not the ultimate reality.____Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.