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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 46 of 183 (409984)
07-12-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by iceage
07-12-2007 1:53 PM


Re: Created to Worship
iceage writes:
Your self-centric world view is showing.
I have talked to many christians about this particular issue. I asked them why would god would condemn those that never heard of him and thus had no way of knowing to worship god, and they told me that it clearly says in the bible that god always reveals himself to EVERYONE, even if you're a native in the deep jungles of the amazon or congo with absolutely no contact with the outside world. Therefore, those people are damned to hell because god has revealed himself to them in one way or other and they rejected him.
I don't have my bible at this moment, so I don't know where it says that.
It just boggles my mind that people actually believe this crap.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iceage, posted 07-12-2007 1:53 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by anastasia, posted 07-12-2007 5:39 PM Taz has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 47 of 183 (409999)
07-12-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Taz
07-12-2007 3:28 PM


Re: Created to Worship
Tazmanian Devil writes:
I have talked to many christians about this particular issue. I asked them why would god would condemn those that never heard of him and thus had no way of knowing to worship god, and they told me that it clearly says in the bible that god always reveals himself to EVERYONE, even if you're a native in the deep jungles of the amazon or congo with absolutely no contact with the outside world. Therefore, those people are damned to hell because god has revealed himself to them in one way or other and they rejected him.
You and iceage seem to have about as many objections to religion based on a false understanding of theology, as people do with that other word...teleology?
I would not at any time obligate or desire that you be tricked by any of the 'BS', but you should at least know WHAT Christians are saying before you get mired into a pit where all you see is nonsense. It's simply because you don't get it. In the same manner that evolution takes a life-time for complete understanding, or at least many years of familiarity, theological principles did not happen over night, and obviously, they sound just as retarded when you hear them, as macro evolution does to an outsider. You need to know why they are believed, and how they DO make sense to many rational people.
So, no Christian except someone who has not bothered to understand, will tell you that God, aka the Specific Christian God, aka Jesus, is appearing/revealing to Hindus and head-hunters, and being rejected. We ARE saying that we believe everyone has a conscience and a soul which yearns to do right, and that by consciously choosing evil, we are figuratively rejecting God. Even the one we never heard of, and the even one we don't believe in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 3:28 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 6:03 PM anastasia has not replied
 Message 52 by iceage, posted 07-12-2007 7:28 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 62 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:13 AM anastasia has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 48 of 183 (410003)
07-12-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by anastasia
07-12-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Created to Worship
You are forgetting something, ana. In fact, I finally abandoned christianity around the age of 20. I don't know about you, but there are real live christians out there that actually believe that no matter who you are or where you are, Jesus reveals himself to you at one time or other, and that if you reject him you go to hell. I can even remember someone making this argument at a school debate I went to.
You and iceage seem to have about as many objections to religion based on a false understanding of theology, as people do with that other word...teleology?
Well, for a starter, many christians would say that catholics aren't really christians. There is no such thing as a christian theology. Rather, there are many branches that believe in different things. Ice and I were referring specifically to the ones that actually honest to goodness believe in the BS.
So, no Christian except someone who has not bothered to understand, will tell you that God, aka the Specific Christian God, aka Jesus, is appearing/revealing to Hindus and head-hunters, and being rejected. We ARE saying that we believe everyone has a conscience and a soul which yearns to do right, and that by consciously choosing evil, we are figuratively rejecting God. Even the one we never heard of, and the even one we don't believe in.
Are you saying that Pat Robertson and the millions that follow him have not bothered to understand?
Added by edit.
I would not at any time obligate or desire that you be tricked by any of the 'BS', but you should at least know WHAT Christians are saying before you get mired into a pit where all you see is nonsense.
Then tell us how you would interpret riverrat's statement there. And by the way, these aren't nonsense. These sort of stuff are what causing millions and millions of Americans to go out and vote in record numbers on bullshit issues.
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by anastasia, posted 07-12-2007 5:39 PM anastasia has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 49 of 183 (410009)
07-12-2007 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
07-12-2007 2:22 AM


Being oppressed, or brainwashed is much different than being in denial, don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2007 2:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2007 2:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 50 of 183 (410010)
07-12-2007 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Legend
07-12-2007 7:24 AM


Re: so what?
If I was dying an agonizing, painful death then, yes, I probably would ask for mercy/forgiveness/whatever.
What would that prove, other than the fact that I'd be desparate ?
That brings up a whole other discussion, of just who needs God and when.
With all our current technology we are embraced by, it becomes more difficult to believe in a God, since we don't need Him.
But in the end, when all the technology in the world won't help, the tide is turned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Legend, posted 07-12-2007 7:24 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Legend, posted 07-14-2007 6:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 51 of 183 (410012)
07-12-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Taz
07-12-2007 11:25 AM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
I'm sorry, I just don't think you're a good parent... or a community leader.
Thanks pal love you too!
Shit you act like you know me or something.
I'm the atheist here and you guys are the christians. You're suppose to be better than me, not the other way around.
WOW dude, just wow.
You'll have to explain why any Christian is supposed to be better than anyone else, and then you'll have to explain just how it is that you are better than any of us.
I'm really sorry, everytime I see one of you talk about god, I just can't get past all the BS that I see you guys do and say about other people who have never done you any harm.
It's simple then, stop looking to us to find God.
And plenty of gay people have done me harm, fortunately, thanks to my God, I forgave them. If it wasn't for that, I might head of the gay bashing committee or something. Thanks to God, that I am tolerant of gay marriage now.
God has met me where I am at. You might be past that point or whatever, but it seems to me, that you are filled with anger, and many more flaws, that all could use some working on.
You can come down off your pedestal now, cause I am sick of looking up your skirt and seeing dirty underwear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 11:25 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 7:59 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 7:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 52 of 183 (410014)
07-12-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by anastasia
07-12-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Created to Worship
Anastasia writes:
In the same manner that evolution takes a life-time for complete understanding, or at least many years of familiarity, theological principles did not happen over night, and obviously, they sound just as retarded when you hear them, as macro evolution does to an outsider.
Whoaa right there... no comparison. I don't accept that evolutionary principles sound "retarded" to an outsider. Natural selection is such a simple and workable concept that T. Huxley once commented "How incredibly stupid, not to have thought of that myself"! I know for myself, after having the fundamentals explained, natural selection just made sense and provided a satisfying explanation of the workings of nature. I won't deny the details are complex, but the principle are simple and intuitive.
On the other hand try to explain things like:
  • Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself to save his creation from his own devices?
  • If Jesus was God who did he pray to?
  • If God created everything why did he create evil?
    Those are sure to bring a blank stare from an outsider.
    I have spent some time in the basement of Christian Theology and let me report that the plumbing is leaking and the patches, sometimes several on one leak, don't hold water.
    Anastasia writes:
    So, no Christian except someone who has not bothered to understand, will tell you that God, aka the Specific Christian God, aka Jesus, is appearing/revealing to Hindus and head-hunters, and being rejected.
    Let's let RiverRat or others respond to that.
    The bible clearly and unequivocally states that salvation is only through Jesus and only by being born again. If a good Muslim dies without accepting Jesus then they are hell bound per scripture. Hey what is that I just heard... oh ya a chorus's of Amens!
    However my point was slightly different and more mechanical.
    If we are created to worship God (as Riverrat believes), and the God described in the Bible is the one true vision of God, then there would be a detectable tendency for people when approaching God to align their worshiping impulses towards the core beliefs described in the Bible such as a triune Godhead, the necessity for water baptism, the nature of the Holy Spirit, or second coming. There would also be a steady defection from counterfeit religions. There would be a detectable core agreement on a set of Godly principles.
    Anastasia writes:
    We ARE saying that we believe everyone has a conscience and a soul which yearns to do right, and that by consciously choosing evil, we are figuratively rejecting God. Even the one we never heard of, and the even one we don't believe in.
    I like it, but it is not gospel!
    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by anastasia, posted 07-12-2007 5:39 PM anastasia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:25 AM iceage has replied
     Message 129 by anastasia, posted 07-16-2007 11:23 AM iceage has replied

    Grizz
    Member (Idle past 5471 days)
    Posts: 318
    Joined: 06-08-2007


    Message 53 of 183 (410016)
    07-12-2007 7:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
    07-11-2007 10:33 AM


    Will you at that moment look to God, and maybe ask Him something?
    You know, the one that doesn't exist?
    I guess it depends on how quickly the end approaches.
    If someone told me I had 10 minutes to live I really don't know how I would react. Would my intellect take a back seat and would I be overcome with emotion and perhaps have an emotional breakdown? Probably. Would I be afraid and even terrified? Yes
    If I knew I had 6 months to live I would be left with a longer time to contemplate my life and the impending end. Perhaps I might grasp onto the idea of an afterlife out of fear and the desire to continue my existence. Perhaps I might not. I really don't know. Whatever the answers I came up with they would no doubt in part be fueled by emotions. To what extent I really don't know either.
    Anyways the primary cause of death is birth. We can't control either but we can control what happens in between. My life really is not directed around how I might or will act when my time is up. The present is the only place I will ever live. When my time arrives I will deal with it as it comes.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has not replied

    Taz
    Member (Idle past 3291 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 54 of 183 (410023)
    07-12-2007 7:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 51 by riVeRraT
    07-12-2007 7:16 PM


    Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
    riverrat writes:
    You'll have to explain why any Christian is supposed to be better than anyone else
    For a starter, christians have been saying they have the moral high ground for as long as anyone can remember.
    and then you'll have to explain just how it is that you are better than any of us.
    Um... I mind my own business when it comes to other people's private lives? Just this little fact is more than most christians can say about themselves.
    It's simple then, stop looking to us to find God.
    But that's just it. You know how many church signs I drive by each day? Especially during election times, you know how many bigotted church signs I see everyday?
    Christianity is nowadays a force that is hard to ignore.
    Thanks to God, that I am tolerant of gay marriage now.
    I wonder... how many times a week do you remind people that even though you tolerate gay marriage you think homosexuality is a sin? Well... considering that it's their private lives... it's like saying you tolerate people having sex when the female is on top, but you think it's a sin. I know, you look to the bible as moral guideline and it told you so... not good enough for me!
    Look, it's probably unfair that I'm picking on you like this, considering you seem to be more tolerant than most christians out there. I just want you to realize that everytime you try to get us (me) to believe in god, I just can't look past the fact that the evidence clearly shows that believing in god does nothing to make people more tolerant of their fellow men.
    Unlike the atheists here who say the evidence (or lack thereof) made them doubt god's existence, I rejected god's existence because of moral issues. I tend to use the gay issue because it's one of the most talked about issues nowadays. But the truth is I see a whole array of limits on moral issues if I am to believe in god, and as far as I can see noone has yet to demonstrate that believing in god would make one being able to make better moral judgements. Among the people who hold conversations with god, the visible ones like Pat Robertson I wouldn't call someone who has a good moral grasp. And among the not so visible ones who number in millions who go out and vote with armageddon in mind I wouldn't call good moral folks either.
    To get back to the original topic, don't look to us atheists about this god thing. If you want to impress us, look toward your own fellow christians and try to make some changes first. Demonstrate to us just how good christians can be. Demonstrate to us that there are actually honest to goodness benefits to believing in god, especially benefits that will help better our society.
    God has met me where I am at. You might be past that point or whatever, but it seems to me, that you are filled with anger, and many more flaws, that all could use some working on.
    I do admit to have certain anger in this issue. The difference between christians and me is I don't vote on my anger. I've told you about my prejudice against drug users and having children. Well, I don't talk about it much. And certainly, I don't go around telling people if this is sinful or that is sinful. I even believe that human life begins at the point of conception and that I feel a great sense of sadness toward the issue of abortion. But when I step outside to the real world, logic takes over and, while it pains me so, I'm pro-choice.
    So, you can be assured that no matter how angry I am at christians, I will never ever support any legislation or any policy that would come close to prohibiting your right to worship. I personally think that the world would be a better place without religion, but I will never say or do anything to promote such an idea. And certainly, I don't go around telling children that religion is evil to counter you going around telling children homosexuality is sinful.
    You can come down off your pedestal now, cause I am sick of looking up your skirt and seeing dirty underwear.
    Hey, I change my underwear everyday.

    Disclaimer:
    Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
    He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 9:27 AM Taz has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 55 of 183 (410037)
    07-12-2007 9:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by riVeRraT
    07-12-2007 9:04 AM


    So tell me, riverrat, are you an agnostic when it comes to the immaterial pink unicorn? How about the invisible green goblin? How about the tooth fairy?
    quote:
    There are OBJECTIVE explanations for all of those.
    Such as?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 9:04 AM riVeRraT has not replied

    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 56 of 183 (410058)
    07-13-2007 2:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
    07-12-2007 7:06 PM


    Well I certainly wasn't "oppressed" or "brainwashed" into atheism. I was raised in a Christian family, my father is a lay preacher (and still taking services even though he's nearly 80). His father was a minister. You can' blame college either since I left the church before going there, when I was facing the prospect of Confirmation. So no, if there was any social pressure on me it was in the other direction.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:33 AM PaulK has replied

    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22391
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.2


    Message 57 of 183 (410087)
    07-13-2007 7:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by riVeRraT
    07-12-2007 7:16 PM


    Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
    Hi RiVeRraT,
    I think you're blowing right by all the key points that made Taz's post a POTM nomination. For example:
    Taz in Message 44 writes:
    I haven't seen anything that would convince me that believing in god would make me a better person. I mean, come on, I'm the atheist here and you guys are the christians. You're suppose to be better than me, not the other way around. You're suppose to be the people who would fight for human rights and I'm suppose to be the bad guy who tries to take away human rights, not the other way around.
    In other words, Taz looks at Christians like yourself and sees the hatred (e.g., toward gays) and intolerance (e.g., only born-again Christians go to heaven) and ignorance (e.g., Genesis should be taught instead of evolution), and he concludes that if that is what evangelical Christianity does to people, he wants no part of it.
    If evangelical Christianity were actually a religion of love and tolerance and openness, then they would embrace gay rights, and they would proclaim that all good, moral people go to heaven, and they would insist that science be taught in science class. But they don't. Freeman Dyson said, "Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things ” that takes religion," and the evidence seems to back him up.
    And plenty of gay people have done me harm...
    That you apparently believe this says much about you, and confirms what Taz has said.
    God has met me where I am at. You might be past that point or whatever, but it seems to me, that you are filled with anger, and many more flaws, that all could use some working on.
    Let me rephrase this for you so that you understand what people actually hear when you say things like this: "God has met me where I am at, so I am at peace with myself when I vote for people who favor anti-gay legislation. I feel God's love when I tell people they won't go to heaven unless they accept my God. I'm doing the Lord's work when I vote for school board members who will substitute my religious beliefs for science in public schools. God finds his pleasure in me, and so if you are filled with anger at my actions then that is a flaw within yourself, God loves me, and you who are alienated from God's love because you have cut yourself off from him will suffer the consequences of your evil decision."
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 66 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:39 AM Percy has replied

    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 416 days)
    Posts: 5788
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 58 of 183 (410113)
    07-13-2007 9:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 54 by Taz
    07-12-2007 7:59 PM


    Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
    I wonder... how many times a week do you remind people that even though you tolerate gay marriage you think homosexuality is a sin?
    Please, let's not drag this thread into the homosexuality thing, but it is clear that you do not understand me, or get me at all, so you need to stop pretending.
    I never said homosexuality is a sin.
    I said the bible says it is a sin, and I consider it a sin for myself.
    I have always said that sin is a relative term, and the sinner knows whether he is sinning or not. I do not need to convict/condemn anyone, the Holy Spirit will do that.
    I also so not look to the bible as a moral guideline, if I did, then I am definitely going to hell.
    Look, it's probably unfair that I'm picking on you like this,
    You are not picking on me. You are unfairly blaming me for everything you hate about most "Christians". It's called prejudice.
    I just want you to realize that everytime you try to get us (me) to believe in god, I just can't look past the fact that the evidence clearly shows that believing in god does nothing to make people more tolerant of their fellow men.
    I am not trying to get anyone to believe in God, I am only sharing my experiences, and hopefully enlighting many of the things I myself had misconceptions about, as many of the people here have done for me.
    I will be happy when the day comes, that it is no longer you vs me, but us, just talking together.
    Demonstrate to us that there are actually honest to goodness benefits to believing in god, especially benefits that will help better our society.
    I don't know if I can show that or not. Many of the benefits are "unseen." and not provable. Even Jesus said in the bible that He did not come to make peace, but that what He was teaching would cause separation between brothers and sisters even.
    No matter what I do there will be believers, and unbelievers.
    Even if there was no such thing as "God" we would still find a way to not get along.
    There is too much "stuff" that we carry, that will get in the way. I have had visions of what our entrance to heaven will be like, when we loose all that stuff, and we are standing "naked" before the Lord. It is then that we will realize just how similar we are, and how the world made us into what we were.
    I know this vision doesn't help you at all, so all I can do for now, is to try hard, like yourself, to get along with everyone. I really have no enemies.
    Hey, I change my underwear everyday.
    It was just a comical statement, because you get up in the morning and take a crap in the toilet like the rest of us.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 7:59 PM Taz has not replied

    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 416 days)
    Posts: 5788
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 59 of 183 (410114)
    07-13-2007 9:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 31 by NosyNed
    07-11-2007 7:58 PM


    Re: Why explore?
    What is worth wondering about is what is it in the way our brain works that makes it so easy for a large number of individuals to fall into the delusion about Odin, Zeus et. al.?
    That is why I say we were created to worship. It seems like a natural thing for us to do. Until we get hurt by it, or our current logical way of thinking, leads us away from it.
    I also often wonder about gods like Zeus, and just how many people of the time, actually believed in it. It may have been just a tool used by government to control the people. Believe or be put to death.
    Now that we have a separation of church and state, we can believe on our own free will. Surely there is a difference between the two.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 31 by NosyNed, posted 07-11-2007 7:58 PM NosyNed has not replied

    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 416 days)
    Posts: 5788
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 60 of 183 (410115)
    07-13-2007 9:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 32 by anastasia
    07-11-2007 8:16 PM


    Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
    I am sorry for your suffering. The only thing I can say I am sure about is that human nature is extremely inconsistant. If people can reject God during life, why not at the end, when they feel like it hasn't been worth it?
    Thank you.
    I wondered about people who commit suicide, and surely they must have rejected the thought of a god right until the end. But then there is that moment, after you've sliced your wrists, that you still have a conscience thought, that you could have changed your mind.
    Even people who pull the trigger, may have a split second to second guess their decision.
    Only an atheist who doesn't see it coming, would not have a chance to think about it.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by anastasia, posted 07-11-2007 8:16 PM anastasia has not replied

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