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Author | Topic: Critique of Ann Coulter's The Church of Liberalism: Godless | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
Rant someplace else, or I'll get the admins to box your ears. Let me interpret: You are unable to refute, and thus you are angry, and are threatening to summon your Mommy (Darwinian Mods) in an attempt to salvage some satisfaction because your kind controls the microphone and the board. Ray
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If you hate and despise this board and it's moderation team so much, why do you beg to be let back in every time you are suspended indefinitely? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
You do realize that you are essentially claiming either a worldwide conspiracy among hundreds of thousands of scientists to maintain an utter falsehood Darwinists not in a conspiracy to maintain their reality defying theory ? Lawyers are in conspiracy to promote the well being of their profession, as are doctors, pilots, unions, banks, etc.etc. Churches are in conspiracy to promote their well being. Each denomination seeks to have their brand of religion flourish. Political parties are in conspiracy to promote their agenda hoping to defeat their rivals. Cops are in conspiracy against criminals and vice-versa. It is the most uncontested and in the open conspiracy of all time: Darwinists conspire to promote their theory hook or crook. The best physical evidence of the Darwinian conspiracy is the fact that the crust of the earth shows no signs of what a evolutionary theory necessitates: intermediacy/transitional. This means that the only logical explanation for the "success" of your conspiracy is the Biblical explanation: "Darwinism is a penalty from God for denying Him the credit and status of Creator" (Dr. Gene Scott). Ray
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I told you already. Sex is advantageous in species with such long generation times, because it increases phenotypic diversity without the disadvantage of out-of-control mutation rates. You're not understanding me. This is all fine and good and sounds halfway plausible even though its pure speculation. The begging question is how nature was able to simultaneously, or nearly simulatnaeously, evolve a male with fully operational sex organs, evolve a female counterpart with fully operation sex organs that just so happen to be perfectly compatible, and be placed within the same locality that they could find one another, and for nature to give them the understanding that they must mate in order to create progeny, all in one felled swoop? No, just, no. And if you say that it wasn't really in one felled swoop, then the new proto-male and proto-female would have died out before they could pass on their genes in order to make sexual reproduction the norm. Its insuperable. Its so difficult to reconcile that I can scarcely see why anyone wouldn't be troubled by it.
Those are not the same thing. Show me one quote where evolutionists have posited intent behind natural selection. That's the position of the Intelligent Design camp, not the theory of evolution, which does not speak to the issue of "intent" in the biological world. How is it not the same thing? If something is random, then it is undirected. If something is non-random then it's directed and in order to direct something, it must be indicative of purpose. Every evolution asserts that natural selection is a non-random event.
No, you said that all living things have 46 chromosomes. This claim is incorrect. No I didn't. I said that one cell can contain 46 chromosmes, so I'm not sure why shuffling was a problem. You seemed to believe that bacteria couldn't have information to shuffle. That's not true. Binary fission passes all of its genetic material to its self-replicated progeny, as well, bacteria can accumulate new DNA from whatever host it so happens to be hitching a ride on. Obviously, in the beginning stages of life this would have been impossible because there was no new DNA to steal it from which makes it that much more implausible that it could have evolved by binary fission plus mutations.
[quote][i]The major and extremely significant difference between prokaryotes and eukaryotes is that eukaryotes have a nucleus and membrane-bound organelles , while prokaryotes do not. The DNA of prokaryotes floats freely around the cell; the DNA of eukaryotes is held within its nucleus[/quote][/i] That's exactly what I said. What you are ignorant of is the fact that those organelles are actually devolved prokaryotes that, billions of years ago, began to indwell within other cells. That's why things like mitochondria have their own DNA. You didn;t say anything on the matter, except, "Why did God make you out of prokaryotes?" What you are describing is baseless. Its what they surmise because that's all they've got, but none of this evolving seems to happens to prokaryotes today, oddly enough. "Approximately 1.5 billion years ago eukaryotic cells started showing up in the fossil records. These cells are filled with organelles that help the cells grow and divide, and are cells that build almost all life forms we can see with the naked eye. No one knows for sure (yet), how eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes; a popular theory is that as prokaryotic life was evolving, during the consumption of other prokaryotes for nourishment through a process called phagocytosis, the consumed organism did not get digested but instead began a symbiotic relationship with the attacking host. Perhaps this new, now invading organism became the mitochondria inside the first prokaryotic cell."
You really need to be paying more attention, NJ. You're simply not understanding what I'm communicating to you in plain language because you're not taking the time to read closely and think about it. That's funny, I thought it was the other way around. Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo “It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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anglagard Member (Idle past 837 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Quite alot. Why I should go through the lists when the burden of proof is on you, is beyond me. But to settle the matter quickly, I will oblige... not that the ToE begins and ends with biology, but many interdisciplinary fields, such as biochemistry, as you pointed out). 1. Stephen Meyer2. Michael Behe 3. David Berlisnki 4. Paul Chien 5. Michael Newton 6. Jonathan Wells 7. Ray Bohlin 8. Walter Bradley 9. Cornelius Hunter 10. Dean Kenyon 11. Forrest Mims 12. Scott Minnich 13. J.P. Moreland 14. Henry Schaefer 15. Charles Thaxton 16. Kenneth Cumming 17. Robert Franks 18. Duane Gish 19. Fazale Rana 20. James Allen 21. Don Batten 22. David Catchpoole 23. Andrew Bosanquet 24. Kinberly Berrine 25. Vladamir Betina 26. Donald Chittick 27. David DeWitt 28. Geoff Downes 29. Andre Eggen 30. Dudley Eirich 31. Carl Fliermans 32. Dwain Ford 33. Maciej Giertych 34. D.B Gower 35. Kelly Hollowell 36. Bob Hosken 37. George Howe 38. Neil Huber 39. George Javor 40. Pierre Jerlstrom 41. Arthur Jones 42. John Kramer 43. Lane Lester 44. Ian Macreadie 45. John Marcus 46. John McEwan 47. Sally McEwan 48. David Menton 49. Angela Meyer 50. Albert Mills 51. Arlton Murray 52. Gary Parker 53. Georgia Purdom 54. Ariel Roth 55. Jonathan Safarti 56. Joachim Scheven 57. Timothy Standish 58. Esther Su 59. Royal Truman 60. Walter Veith 61. A.J. White 62. John Whitmore 63. Kurt Wise 64. Patrick Young 65. Henry Zuill I have questions concerning 22 of the 65 individuals cited as having PhD degrees in a bioscience field. According to my research 10 individuals actually have degrees in chemistry, not bioscience (including biochemistry). They are Schaefer, Thaxton, Rana, Chittick, Ford, McEwan (both), Safarti, White, and Young. There are 6 individuals on which I am unable to properly determine credentials as the granting institution was not listed. They are Catchpoole, Bosanquet, Berrine, Betina, Huber, and Murray. There are 3 individuals that hold philosophy and/or history of science Phds. They include Meyer, Newton, and Moreland. There is one in Math, Berlinski, and one in engineering, Bradley. Franks is an MD. Two individuals listed appear to not hold Phds. Sally McEwan apparently has an MSc in Chemistry and Forrest Mims, a BA in government. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, my primary source was Answers in Genesis. Evidently from my research someone wanted to pad the list. BTW, physical chemists are not bioscientist PhDs, nor are PhDs in philosophy, history, math, or materials science.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
What doe this have to do with Coulter's book?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The begging question is how nature was able to simultaneously, or nearly simulatnaeously, evolve a male with fully operational sex organs, evolve a female counterpart with fully operation sex organs that just so happen to be perfectly compatible, and be placed within the same locality that they could find one another, and for nature to give them the understanding that they must mate in order to create progeny, all in one felled swoop? No, just, no. No, of course not. Did you follow that link? It answers your question. Sex didn't evolve from asex in one fell swoop; it evolved on a gradual continuum between asexual organisms and sexual ones. Those intermediate steps are still present today.
If something is non-random then it's directed and in order to direct something, it must be indicative of purpose. This is just nonsense. No, really. Nonsense. Of course something can be non-random and yet be undirected.
No I didn't. Yes, you did. Look, NJ, I can even go back and find it:
quote: Not, "up to 46 chromosomes." You asserted that every cell - human or not - has 46 chromosomes. That claim is ludicrously incorrect, as I showed. Specific to bacteria, it's 46 chromosomes too many - bacterial DNA isn't wound up into chromosomes at all.
Binary fission passes all of its genetic material to its self-replicated progeny Right. Bacteria reproduce clonally. No shuffling.
bacteria can accumulate new DNA from whatever host it so happens to be hitching a ride on. Irrelevant to the example, because the bacteria were grown in monoculture from a single individual. There were no "hosts". There weren't "other strains." There were only cloned individuals, and whatever differences existed between them genetically could only be the result of mutation. That's how the experiment was set up, to rule out all other sources of genetic variation. No horizontal transfer, no nothing.
Obviously, in the beginning stages of life this would have been impossible because there was no new DNA to steal it from which makes it that much more implausible that it could have evolved by binary fission plus mutations. You're all over the map on this one. First you're telling me that mutation isn't the only source of genetic variation, some kind of "shuffling" is going on; and now you're telling me that shuffling wouldn't have been able to occur? Which is it, NJ? You don't seem too sure.
What you are describing is baseless. No. One of the bases is the fact that our own mitochondria have their own entirely seperate DNA. Why would they have rendundant DNA if it wasn't a vestage of their ancestry as independant organisms?
Its what they surmise because that's all they've got, but none of this evolving seems to happens to prokaryotes today, oddly enough. Nonsense. Even to this day we can observe more primitive forms of endosymbiosis.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
does sexual reproduction need all the glands, the male/female parts we've got, and all that other stuff that you say is perfectly coordinated? no.
all sexual reproduction is where you have a haploid cell fuse with another haploid cell (both haploids coming from diploid cells). and then those two haploid cells become one diploid cell. there are plants (or perhaps they're fungi) that go through one stage of life hapoid and then diploid. they don't have any of the stuff we've got for sexual reproduction. and it's not limited to two sexes either. that's the way its setup in all animals and plants, because that's the direction the evolutionary path ended up going, but all you need is to different sexes. and if I recall correctly, fungi have a lot more than just two. what about the organisms that lay their eggs, and then sperm gets laid on top of the eggs--no physical contact required. point is, if you're trying to make sexual reproduction into an IC thing, it isn't. now then, as to the whole non-random meaning it has intent (indicative of purpose, as you put), that's bull, like crash said. here's why.is the future a random event? we know that the future will happen. but does this non-random event display any direction of purpose? no. can you predict the future? is a mutation a random event? no. in the sense that a mutation will occur. no matter what, a mutation will occur. but can you predict what the mutation will be? what effect it will have? where they will occur? no. perhaps someone out there has a much better anology to explain it. All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, my primary source was Answers in Genesis. Evidently from my research someone wanted to pad the list. BTW, physical chemists are not bioscientist PhDs, nor are PhDs in philosophy, history, math, or materials science. I only counted those people with PhD's in fields that were directly attributed or applicable to the study of evolution. Those do not include such studies as Astronomy, Law, Mathematics (only), etc. I looked carefully to make sure that I could account for those individuals. It took me a long time look over that list, but if you say that I am in error, I will take your word for it. I really don't care enough to go back and check it out now. It shouldn't have been my burden to begin with. I just did it to resolve a difference of opinion. “It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
What does this have to do with Coulter's book? This thread has seriously derailed. There are only loose affiliations with Coulter at this point. I indict myself in that statement.
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Cornell only saw "her mind." It appears the biology was not "controversial?" arrgghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click for full size image I can not "respond"/talk (even with my tuition $) to Will Provine without him feeling offended. He knows I know. Same difference as Ann. After this there is only the "state of mind."
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3941 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
For lack of a better place.
Jerry Coyne was recently on WFMU-FM, commenting on the republican presidential candidate debate where candidates were asked if they believed in evolution. MP3 version (not permanent):http://www.wfmu.org/listen.m3u?show=24213&archive=37136 RealPlayer version (permanent):http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=24213&archive=37135 Added by edit: There is a short music intro, then Jerry Coyne is the first guest in the show. Moose Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Percy has copied the information of the previous message to message 55 of the "Science Programs on Radio, TV and Internet" topic, which is a far better place for it.
The topic is very close to 300 messages, the standard closing point. Probably best to close it now. If anyone wishes to mine a new topic out of this topic, please propose a new topic, unless it belongs in a forum that does not require going through the Proposed New Topics forum. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073] Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon. There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot. Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source
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