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Junior Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 29 From: Ca., U.S.A. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Warm soup/ or Hot Soap | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Simonsays Junior Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 29 From: Ca., U.S.A. Joined: |
I've been browsing the "Origin of Life" forum and keep finding references to the "Warm Soup" theory of abiogenesis, but can find no references to Louis Lerman's "Pre-Boom" hypothesis,or mention of the "Bubblesol Cycle"... Why? His proposed theory came out nearly 14 years ago... Has it been discredited in some way, or is it just that no one here has heard of it at all?
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AdminCoragyps Inactive Member |
Can you flesh that post out a bit? Links or library references would be mighty helpful.
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Simonsays Junior Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 29 From: Ca., U.S.A. Joined: |
I'm new to forum procedures,and do not know how to attach a link, so...I'll do it manually.
"Bubble Genesis of Life" @ Bubble Genesis of Life This theory allows for multiple dynamic enviroments/interfaces and cyclical production leading to reproductive production.This contrasts sharply with the image cast by the "Warm Soup" theory -stagnant,isolated,random,and noncyclical.The theory leads rather neatly into a "Catastrophic Creation" process,where the supposedly entirely destructive bolide events of the early earth could have constructive abiogenic consequences as well.If true this might push back the estimate for lifes beginnings. Edited by Simonsays, : Typo and a spelling error.
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AdminCoragyps Inactive Member |
Ah! I had heard of this idea - but I'm not finding much of anything online and free about it. I don't want to turn loose of $32.00 to get more at the moment, though I'll certainly go look at the Texas Tech library next time I'm there.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/lp80837011613605/http://www.springerlink.com/content/g3mtl64p9378668q/ both look good, but in the absence of anything equally meaty for us to discuss here, I don't see how I can promote this topic - there would hardly be enough to discuss.
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Simonsays Junior Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 29 From: Ca., U.S.A. Joined: |
Hi AdminCoragyps,
I checked out the two sites you listed...(I agree that they both looked rather skimpy) However,other than that they both dealt with Aerosols and abiogenesis, I saw no connection to "Louis Lerman",the "PRE_BOOM" hypothesis, or the "Bubblesol Cycle". I'm not sure what keywords you used in your site search(aerosols?,abiogenesis?), but I apparently had more luck. Besides the link I gave in message three,(which you did not refer to)here are two more... all of them FREE! 1.) "Natural consequences of the terrestrial bubble-aerosol9bubblesol..."(pdf) @ http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/2062.pdf 2.) "DO MARTIAN BLUEBERRIES HAVE PITS ?... ARTIFACTS OF MARTIAN WATER PAST"(pdf) @ http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/earlymars2004/pdf/8063.pdf There are more sites, but I'm a little pressed for time at the moment.I hope your lack of successful search hits is not an indicator that you're a graduate of the Michael Behe school of word searching. While I agree that the articles you cited have little to gnaw on,I don't see how that is the case for a "Soup vs. Soap" debate.
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AdminCoragyps Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
This is a subject of considerable interest to my non-admin self - and the links I gave above appear to be quite closely related. I just wish that more scientific, as opposed to journalistic, references were online. Now what shall we discuss? Edited by AdminCoragyps, : No reason given.
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Matt P Member (Idle past 4803 days) Posts: 106 From: Tampa FL Joined: |
Hi Simonsays,
Short answer, yes. I'm looking through funded proposals by NASA but haven't found the one I've heard mentioned a few times, but aerosols as concentrating locations for Origins of Life events is being investigated. A lot of research is still done on the "prebiotic soup" though, mainly due to ease of analysis. I'll hunt through some of my abstract books to see if there's anything.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Okay, I need a little help ... with the scientific terms "blueberries" and "strawberries" as applied to martian artifacts ...
I assume they are not used to make pie. ps welcome to the fray. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Help on Blueberries
More on blueberries Hope that helps you on your way. Edited by jar, : apallin spallin Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Simonsays Junior Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 29 From: Ca., U.S.A. Joined: |
I was only able to access the abstracts from your two links, due to not wanting to pony up for the full articles and my computer going into terminal meltdown,(picking up a new one hopefully in a couple of weeks)but they both seem to concentrate(pun intended) only on aerosols. The bubble genesis aspect(think foam) was the more inteteresting aspect for me,both because of the primitive "cell" comparison,and because as a bonified "Mac.@ Cheese" addict I've seen my share of runaway bubble formation... ("Warm Soup" just doesn't do it for me).
I also would like to have more scientific articles to peruse on the subject. As to what I would like to discuss...how about "Bubblegenesis".Specifically "Catastrophic Creation". In what ways could Catastrophic events (I.e. Comet/asteroid impacts,Supervolcanoes,ice ages,magnetic reversals,etc.) affect the "Bubblesol Cycle" ? Current guesses as to when life began date after the proposed early bombardment of the earth by asteroids and comets. I question that hypothesis.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In what ways could Catastrophic events (I.e. Comet/asteroid impacts,Supervolcanoes,ice ages,magnetic reversals,etc.) affect the "Bubblesol Cycle" ? The bubble-bath boil over could be one way to combine the elements for OOL (origin of life) from the deep sea vents with those of the surface. The aerosols a way to "fertilize" the whole globe. It's fascinating: thanks. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Simonsays Junior Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 29 From: Ca., U.S.A. Joined: |
Hi RAZD,
You forgot the catastrophic component... Supervolcanoes and cometary /asteroid impacts might spread the ingredients to the edge of space and beyond. That's two extra locations besides the solid/liquid and liquid/gas interfaces you mention. Plus, space/or near space chemistry would be anaerobic(spellcheck?)(no oxygen)so it would allow those scenarios where oxygen would not be allowed.
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Simonsays Junior Member (Idle past 6132 days) Posts: 29 From: Ca., U.S.A. Joined: |
Hi again Razd,
(Got logged off at the Library.Had to relog on.)I own a book ("Not by Fire ,but by Ice") that points to a strong correlation between Geomagnetic reversals and extreme geologic events; (i.e. Volcanism,Ice Ages,mountain building, etc.)Ironically, the extreme hot events(volcanic) and the extreme cold(Ice Ages)appear to be concurrent. Creationists might complain when told about O.O.L. experiments saying something like "where were the test tubes,the beakers,on an early earth?" The conjunction of hot and cold above makes me think of "Lava Tubes",and "Ice Caves"... Just as chemicals might pass from bubble to bubble(think foam),they might also pass from lava tube to lava tube,and from ice cave to ice cave.(think concentrated sugars,image of melting popsicles) Rather than just a sea of soupy organics floating around with some Brownian motion, I envision cauldrons of volcanic glass,and glacial ice,where chemicals stew and boil...But also shoot up in the air with the regularity of "Old Faithfull"(Yellowstone Nat. Park geiser).
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In Message 11 Ken posted the following:
I agree with you that not all of the necessary elements for forming life need to come from meteors, but assuming that life began with naturalistic spontaneous generation, where else would these essential compounds have originated? According to David Berlinski in his commentary on the origins of life (I read it here)
According to the impression generally conveyed in both the popular and the scientific literature, the success of the original Miller-Urey experiment was both absolute and unqualified. This, however, is something of an exaggeration. Shortly after Miller and Urey published their results, a number of experienced geochemists expressed reservations. Miller and Urey had assumed that the pre-biotic atmosphere was one in which hydrogen atoms gave up (reduced) their electrons in order to promote chemical activity. Not so, the geochemists contended. The pre-biotic atmosphere was far more nearly neutral than reductive, with little or no methane and a good deal of carbon dioxide. Nothing in the intervening years has suggested that these sour geochemists were far wrong. Writing in the 1999 issue of Peptides, B.M. Rode observed blandly that “modern geochemistry assumes that the secondary atmosphere of the primitive earth (i.e., after diffusion of hydrogen and helium into space) . . . consisted mainly of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, water, sulfur dioxide, and even small amounts of oxygen.” This is not an environment calculated to induce excitement.A recent paper in Science has suggested that previous conjectures about the pre-biotic atmosphere were seriously in error. A few researchers have argued that a reducing atmosphere is not, after all, quite so important to pre-biotic synthesis as previously imagined. In all this, Miller himself has maintained a far more unyielding and honest perspective. “Either you have a reducing atmosphere,” he has written bluntly, “or you’re not going to have the organic compounds required for life.”
So then, if the organic compounds required for life could not have already been present on earth, they must have been introduced. This thread has been a little cold for a while, so I though I would warm it up with adding into the discussion just what kind of soup we are talking about. Leaving aside for now the article above {and its source - the "Center for Science and Culture" is a Discovery Institute program - and the possibility of quote mines, misrepresentations, and just plain missing information, etc, that are common to creationist\IDologist articles}, what are we talking about for the early earth atmosphere, land and water (lakes and seas) conditions? Going back to my column RAZD - Building Blocks of Life, I have to agree that the average condition on earth was not reducing as had been previously assumed, and I discussed briefly what it may have been like:
quote: The column was written in 2005, so it is ~2 years out of date compared to recent research in this field, but I don't expect much has happened to change the soup mix of late (I have not heard of any new theories in this regard). Does this mean we have no source of acidic environments on earth? We can look at sources of natural acid in todays world to see what they could be like and how prevalent they could be. A google on "acid springs" presents a prolific list of sites, from which I picked (you'll see why): UW Bacteriology | Error page
quote: We also see that the "extremophiles" found in these hot springs are probably closely related to the first kinds of life, and they do not use oxygen in their energy cycle so they could survive in the early atmosphere\environment. These hot springs are of geo-thermal origin, a process that was ongoing on early earth up to the period of meteoric impact. Again from my column article:
quote: Thus it is likely that acidic hot springs were not uncommon on the face of the prebiotic earth. Similar environments could be found at thermal hot vents in the ocean floors. From my column article again:
quote: Thus we have two known environments where favorable conditions are available. When you combine this with the "Bubblesol Cycle" delivery system of the OP, this provides the soup for the molecules delivered by the meteors to meet and get together. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : thermal hot vents Edited by RAZD, : end compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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