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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 31 of 296 (497705)
02-05-2009 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
02-05-2009 11:21 AM


Re: Kiss my ring
Hey Iano
EXISTENCE and CONTRADICTION
You have previously stated that God does not force us to do anything against our will.
Modulus has stated that he wills his existence to cease at some point.
Yet it seems that God will force Modulus to exist eternally.
This seems contradictory?
LOGIC and HORROR
You have also told me previously that "God is logic".
Logically an eternal existence equates to either an eternity of personal change or an eternity of personal stagnation.
There is no other logical conclusion. Is there?
Modulus has stated that he finds both these possible alternatives to be "horrific".
Thus not only will God force Modulus to exist against his will he will also be forcing Modulus to experience that which he has declared himself to consider "horrific".
Could it be that we will all ultimately reside in the same eternal realm and that whether this is considered heaven or hell is merely a matter of personal perspective?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 11:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 5:48 PM Straggler has replied
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 32 of 296 (497708)
02-05-2009 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by NosyNed
02-05-2009 1:59 PM


Re: what eternity means
I think that Christians don't get what "eternity" means.
Quite the contrary, it's unbelievers who have no clue what eternity means, or what it will be like.
One thing we Christians know, our Lord and Creator will be there. The chief aim for those who enter into relationship with Him is for us to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
If you think this heaven and earth are something to behold, our God promises that when this age comes to an end, He will create a new heaven and a new earth for us to dwell in throughout eternity. I promise you that I won't be bored in God's new heaven and new earth.
I can't say the same for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by NosyNed, posted 02-05-2009 1:59 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Blue Jay, posted 02-05-2009 5:32 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 33 of 296 (497709)
02-05-2009 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by John 10:10
02-05-2009 5:22 PM


Re: what eternity means
Hi, John.
John 10:10 writes:
The chief aim for those who enter into relationship with Him is for us to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
I have often heard this. Most often, I have heard "glorify" Him interpreted as singing songs.
For eternity.
You don't think we'll get bored of that eventually?
I even get tired of Bon Jovi after awhile.

-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by John 10:10, posted 02-05-2009 5:22 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 296 (497712)
02-05-2009 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
02-05-2009 5:07 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
Hi Straggler
Straggler writes:
You have previously stated that God does not force us to do anything against our will.
Given that God forces many to die against their will I doubt that the context would support my meaning that.
You have also told me previously that "God is logic".
Logically an eternal existence equates to either an eternity of personal change or an eternity of personal stagnation.
There is no other logical conclusion. Is there?
Change and Stagnation as Mod was describing things lent heavily upon the concept of time elapsing as well as supposing eternal personhood to be more or less a continuation of the time-bound experience. If elapsing time wasn't an element of such an existance however, then time-bound words such as change and stagnation need no longer apply.
It wouldn't strike me as reasonable to extend logical constraints arising in time to a realm where time may not exist.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:07 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 6:05 PM iano has not replied
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 6:21 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 35 of 296 (497714)
02-05-2009 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Blue Jay
02-05-2009 5:32 PM


Re: what eternity means
Bluejay writes:
Most often, I have heard "glorify" Him interpreted as singing songs.
Merely obeying God glorifies God. For one sick to the back teeth of not being obedient to God I can't wait for an eternity of it. I'm positively rubbing my hands together with glee at the prospect of it.

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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 36 of 296 (497715)
02-05-2009 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
02-05-2009 5:07 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
Straggler writes:
Could it be that we will all ultimately reside in the same eternal realm and that whether this is considered heaven or hell is merely a matter of personal perspective?
I'd imagine it to be the same realm - existing on opposite sides of a coin called God. Those on one side get to experience one side of the coin: love, kindness, majesty. Those on the other side get to experience wrath.
It seems to me that a God who loves righteousness cannot but hate unrighteousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:07 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 37 of 296 (497716)
02-05-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
02-05-2009 5:48 PM


Change and Stagnation as Mod was describing things lent heavily upon the concept of time elapsing as well as supposing eternal personhood to be more or less a continuation of the time-bound experience. If elapsing time wasn't an element of such an existance however, then time-bound words such as change and stagnation need no longer apply.
True enough but 'everlasting life' would be a misnomer if we take the passage of time, or some spiritual facsimile thereof, out of the picture.
What's more, as cavediver would point out - we already have this kind of eternal life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 5:48 PM iano has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 38 of 296 (497719)
02-05-2009 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
02-05-2009 5:48 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
I intended my participation in this thread to be relatively drive-by. I should have known that invoking debate with you would not allow that level of superficiality........
Straggler writes:
You have previously stated that God does not force us to do anything against our will.
Modulus has stated that he wills his existence to cease at some point.
Yet it seems that God will force Modulus to exist eternally.
This seems contradictory?
Given that God forces many to die against their will I doubt that the context would support my meaning that.
Fair comment.
But the point remains that forcing Mod to an existence of eternity, a state that Mod describes as "horrific", seems rather counter to any idea of choice. He can choose eternity or eternity. Horror or horror. Hallelujah!
Now you claim that one form of eternity is marvellous and the other awful but if Mod finds them both horrific what kind of choice is that?
Change and Stagnation as Mod was describing things lent heavily upon the concept of time elapsing as well as supposing eternal personhood to be more or less a continuation of the time-bound experience. If elapsing time wasn't an element of such an existance however, then time-bound words such as change and stagnation need no longer apply.
It wouldn't strike me as reasonable to extend logical constraints arising in time to a realm where time may not exist.
I think you should raise this point with Mod himself as, despite being fairly unsatisfactory, it is the closest to a theistic get-out-clause I have seen in response to the conundrum he has posed.
If neither change nor stagnation (i.e. absence of change) then what.............?
On what basis should Mod be re-assured that eternity in God's company will not result in the alternatives of eternal change or eternal stagnation that he finds so horrific?
That is what he is asking for in his OP "letter". A reasoned re-assurance that eternity of any form will not actually be horrific for the reasons he details.
Can you or God provide that reasoned re-assurance?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 5:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 5:44 AM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 39 of 296 (497735)
02-05-2009 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Modulous
02-05-2009 7:09 AM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
I hope that you were not inspired by God in answer to my letter and that you are simply confused or wrong.
I gave you my answer in Message 15 where I said:
ICANT writes:
God is everlasting and since you are in his image then you are everlasting also. You don't have a choice
Your Mother and Father had sex the sperm fertilized the egg and you are the result.
So stop blaming God for your existence. Take it up with them.
ICANT writes:
Everlasting life with God if you so choose.
Everlasting contempt with the devil. No choice required.
You have one option. You can be born again or continue as you are.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Everything you need to get to heaven is contained in those three verses.
Modulous writes:
You seem to describe an eternal life with no challenges and no learning.
ICANT writes:
Then we will have a new heaven (universe) and a new earth.
A new heaven and a new earth to explore and the capability to go anywhere in that universe.
ICANT writes:
This throne shall be in the New Jerusalem, a city of 1500 cubic miles. Whose streets are pure gold.
What a beautiful sight. With the ability to walk on pure gold. The substance man spends his entire life on earth trying to gather up to leave for someone else to enjoy.
ICANT writes:
What if God would let me create my own universe?
A little dreaming but what if He would let us create our own universe? We would be like Him.
Then the privilege to meet God Himself. I long for that day so I can say thank you in person.
Now if you think it would be hollow and pointless gratification to be able to visit anywhere in the universe you desired, live in a city in a mansion, walk on streets of pure gold, walk through the most beautiful garden that the river flows through and maybe even get to create your own universe.
God was right when He had this message for you.
Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
ICANT

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:09 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Vacate, posted 02-06-2009 3:02 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 43 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 6:34 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 55 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-06-2009 11:54 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 57 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 1:54 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 99 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 8:09 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 40 of 296 (497745)
02-05-2009 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Modulous
02-05-2009 7:31 AM


Re: Eternal Life vs Temporal Life
Modulous writes:
That's why I am asking God, or one of his inspired followers, to explain how an eternal life can be better than a temporal one. "It will be" certainly isn't a good enough answer for me.
1. For millions temporal life has been sad, oppressive, short, and miserable. Likely the most blessed, prosperous and content folks have been those in free nations, particularly nations Biblically inclined. Even so, there comes the dark days of old age, sickness and war, etc. In short, temporary life falls short of bliss.
2. The only solution, if there is one, would be to search out truth and like a miner of diamonds, hope one finds the fortune.
3. My strategy is to prospect/search out the options which look better than what this temporary life offers. What are the options out there which are claimed. If one finds one's self on a sinking ship, one must begin checking out the prospects of a life raft off the ship before the sinking. If the ship has rafts, one would check out the raft to see if it's seaworthy.
4. Is there evidence that a better life is available, i.e. a life raft off the sinking ship? Judging from history, the social benefits offered in the Bible appear to have afforded the best temporal life available. This, coupled with the corroborative evidence, satisfies me and gives me the peace of mind that I've found something better than what this temporal earthly life offers.
5. Having been convinced of this, the prospect of a blissful eternal life look like the best option and the one to stake my hopes upon. Thus, I, like millions of Christian martyrs have done over the centuries, would die before abandoning my choice if my government or anyone else demanded that I do so. This is why so many have chosen to have their temporal lives shortened rather than to deny the Christ of their salvation and the evidence based promise of a blissful eternal life.
6. If it turned out that there is no punishment for rejecting and no eternal bliss for the receivers of the Biblical gospel, it is the
(Abe: genuinly devout) ones who believed and received, by and large, who will have had the best temporal life on earth, whether it be long or short. History attests to that.
Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add apostrophy

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:31 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 7:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4601 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 41 of 296 (497755)
02-06-2009 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
02-05-2009 9:52 PM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
You have one option. You can be born again or continue as you are.
Though your not the only one in this thread that has expressed this point of view, given the dilema that Modulous expressed in his OP, it seems to me the honest thing to say is "You have no choice, its two types of horror with a varied appearance."
A new heaven and a new earth to explore and the capability to go anywhere in that universe.
In thirty some odd years I have explored my fair city quite well. In a few thousand I could likely state that my country has few stones left unturned. The Earth is a large place, but if in thirty years I can know my city, I think in a few million I could know my planet equally well. Have you really thought out the meaning of eternity?
What a beautiful sight. With the ability to walk on pure gold. The substance man spends his entire life on earth trying to gather up to leave for someone else to enjoy.
Its beauty is tied to its rarity not its durability as a paving material. Not only does the prospect of acres of gold fail to have much appeal but using it as some form of incentive to make the right choice sounds like a bribe scorned by the tenth commandment.
We would be like Him.
Isn't that just the problem Satan got himself mixed up in?
live in a city in a mansion
More materialism. What point does a mansion serve?
From message 15 you said writes:
There will be no sun to count days
Why not? Stars have to be at least worth a few hundred years of observation.
Also from message 15 writes:
At this time we will have a perfect body, a perfect spirit and all knowledge.
If you have all knowledge then the only thing that could be new is a holiday down south in the warmer climates. Since you made your choice though I expect your not allowed to change your mind?
Perhaps it takes a certain type of person to find your examples worthy of excitement. Though I certainly would appreciate the ability to travel without financial constraints; I expect that after a few eternities of exploration the next planet will begin to look like the last.
Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2009 9:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 42 of 296 (497777)
02-06-2009 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Straggler
02-05-2009 6:21 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
Straggler writes:
I intended my participation in this thread to be relatively drive-by. I should have known that invoking debate with you would not allow that level of superficiality........
Your salvation remains high on my agenda.
-
But the point remains that forcing Mod to an existence of eternity, a state that Mod describes as "horrific", seems rather counter to any idea of choice. He can choose eternity or eternity. Horror or horror. Hallelujah!
It's true that Mod doesn't get to chose just anything he likes. That doesn't alter the fact he has a choice between options. Most of us get by with not being able to chose just anything we want. His claim that the options are equally horrific - rendering no effective choice is entirely speculative. He and we don't know what eternity will be like so can't begin to suppose what that existance will involve.
-
I think you should raise this point with Mod himself as, despite being fairly unsatisfactory, it is the closest to a theistic get-out-clause I have seen in response to the conundrum he has posed.
The best way to assuage fears based on speculation and guesswork is not to speculate and guess in the first place. A more humble approach would be to stand back and use your knowledge of what you can observe to begin to suppose the scale of God and suppose that delivering on eternal bliss isn't beyond his capability.
If neither change nor stagnation (i.e. absence of change) then what.............?
Who knows what the realm of eternity will throw up? That's part of the whole excitement Straggler. "No eye has seen and no mind has concieved of the wonderful things that God has prepared for those who love him". It's an utter arrogance to sit here utilising that which God has given us to suppose our way to placing boundaries on what God can give us. An utter arrogance and an argument made entirely out of bootstraps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 6:21 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 12:53 PM iano has replied
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 43 of 296 (497797)
02-06-2009 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
02-05-2009 9:52 PM


God - great designer, poor civil engineer
Your Mother and Father had sex the sperm fertilized the egg and you are the result.
So stop blaming God for your existence. Take it up with them.
My parent's created my eternal soul?
Now if you think it would be hollow and pointless gratification to be able to visit anywhere in the universe you desired, live in a city in a mansion, walk on streets of pure gold, walk through the most beautiful garden that the river flows through and maybe even get to create your own universe.
Yes, hollow and pointless gratification. I'm sure it'd be great for a few dozen years, don't get me wrong. Creating my own universe might keep me entertained for a while too. Making streets out of a soft ugly coloured metal seems a bit daft, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2009 9:52 PM ICANT has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 296 (497803)
02-06-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
02-05-2009 11:51 AM


Re: Shutup and Kiss my ring, already
iano writes:
But you did make a decision - or will have. That you had no choice but to chose one way or the other doesn't absolve you from the consequences of choosing the way you choose.
Mod writes:
What? Are you saying I do get to decide whether I will live for eternity? I thought your position, as you later describe it is that I only get to choose the "flavour of eternal life". Which is it?
You chose which flavour of eternal life you'll live. Because you chose it you can't complain about the consequences attaching to your having chosen it.
Very confusing. What does 'eternal death' mean? The way I understand it, it cannot be a terrible existence since it would mean not existing.
Sorry. Biblically speaking death doesn't mean ceasing to exist. There is your physical death whereby you leave your body behind. Eternal existance in a state of death would be eternal separation from the love of God. It would appear to mean, amongst other things, that the image of God in which you are currently made would be removed from you. Your ability to relate, to create, to hope, to wonder, to enjoy...etc wouldn't be available to you.
-
I'm not assuming any such thing - I am stating that I see no other possibilities and asking if anyone has any answers. Evidently between you and God, you can't think of any or won't tell me. Fine.
Fair enough. But you would recognise that your engaging in sheer guesswork wouldn't you? Like, your inability to conceive of possibilities can't be supposed to limit God's ability to conceive of possibilities.
-
I was hoping that God could explain, as well as or better than a mortal philosopher, why my dilemma isn't one. "Trust me, it isn't" is to be frank, a pathetic answer. I appreciate its the best that your God has - so my answer to your God remains "Thanks, but no thanks."
My point was that no matter what answer you received you'd still be reliant on trusting God that he would deliver on it. So what material difference whether you have an answer that satisfies your intellect now or an answer that says "trust me that you will be satisfied". What would be achieved by the one that wouldn't be achieved by the other?
-
Forces that God put in place when he created it. I don't hold together my model airplane - I used glue to do that.
And who do you suppose holds those forces in place. The forces that hold you and you're model aeroplane together? Doesn't the regression simply stop at God?
-
Since I've not met him, I don't know if it would be interesting. I'm sure the experience would be novel - but would it hold my interest? Probably - but them God might be dreadfully boring for all I know.
Given all that holds your interest has been rendered by God I find that a little hard to swallow. That said, this gig is about where one's heart lies - whether your heart plumps for that which God hates (evil) or for that which God loves (righteousness). The person whose hearts plumps for evil will hate that which God stands for. They might well considering him boring.
-
Still, it would be nice if I could spend my mortal life looking forward to eternity rather than dreading it. Your God doesn't do that kind of thing, it's a case of "Shutup and follow my rules that I won't fully explain for reasons that I won't explain so that you will be rewarded in ways I won't explain."
There is no reason to dread eternal life other than by distrusting God. But if you distrust God you have no reason to dread eternal life because you won't be having eternal life in order to find out whether you were right or not.
I spend my life looking forward to eternity because there is sufficient given to look forward to - even if it's not described in detail. Existing without pain or suffering? Getting to actually see God - who I don't find boring in the least? Not being capable of evil anymore - meaning no more shame and no more guilt attaching to evil actions of mine?
-
Well of course he doesn't. I don't have to answer your questions, and Hitler didn't have to answer Chamberlain's questions. If your God's answer is just 'shutup and trust me' then our discussion is over. I remain where I was at the start, not looking forward to eternal life.
It's not me you're addressing here Mod. It's God. And he has given you the right to shake your fist in his face and demand of him things you have no right to demand - but only for a time.
Either you relinquish your right to shake your fist at him and kneel on his terms or that temporary right to shake your fist will be taken away from you for good. That's the only choice you're being offered.
Some make the mistake of supposing that Hell, for all it's horror, will permit a person to maintain a "I did it my way" attitude and hold two fingers up to God. How often we read them supposing the price worth paying - if only they can maintain independance, if only they can have the final say. They don't realise that it's God who sustains the persons ability to do as they do. And that he will remove that sustanance at a point.
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Even those in Hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 11:51 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 7:41 AM iano has replied
 Message 101 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 8:53 AM iano has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 45 of 296 (497807)
02-06-2009 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Buzsaw
02-05-2009 11:25 PM


Re: Eternal Life vs Temporal Life
Having been convinced of this, the prospect of a blissful eternal life look like the best option and the one to stake my hopes upon.
It might look great to you, but I would prefer a temporary and painful struggle for survival followed by permanent death than have one of the various eternal lives described by any number of religions. You didn't address the dilemma. I've looked around the sinking ship and all of the lifeboats are equally seaworthy to me, some of them offer an eternity of floating around without learning, struggling, or sense of achievement, some of them offer the slow but complete destruction of who I am.
Why should I not just plunge into the icy waters and have done with it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2009 11:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 4:10 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 65 by Buzsaw, posted 02-06-2009 6:32 PM Modulous has replied

  
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