Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others)

I'm curious where the genetic studies are that show dogs and wolves to be two wholly separate kinds, as opposed to dogs being different breeds of domesticated wolves?I mean, here is a study that says otherwise (you should sign up, it might do some good. It's free!)

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

ICANT wrote: ICANTS (universal, unquestionable) kind rule : Two Chihuahua's never produce a baby Rottweiler
Two Rottweiler's never produce a baby ChihuahuaSo Rottweiler and Chihuahua must be separate Kinds due to the universal rule you uncovered.Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.

Hi greyseal, Where did you get the impression I did not believe in evolution?Being raised on a farm and breeding animals to produce a larger more durable breed I know evolution takes place.But in all my years I have never seen one kind produce another kind. I can find no evidence for such ever taking place.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

May I suggest you go back and read your own posts where you admit that a wolf-dog hybrid would be neither wolf kind nor dog kind and would logically therefore be a new kind.This post for example: Message 267Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

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It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Dog? Wolf? Kangaroo? Tiger?It is called a Thylacine.I just want to know where the distinction lies......Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Its common knowledge around here I believe the Bible. Where did I make this claim? That would be a better question to ask the breeders that produce the German shepherd.As I understand it the German shepherd is a hybrid. I never pet a German shepherd I did not raise. I have owned too many of them. When I get a female I want her eyes just opened. It takes a lot of bonding and that is the best time to start. You feed them from a bottle and have them become dependent on you. They will become very protective of their humans and territory.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Dr. Where in any of my posts did I say that if you cross a wolf and a dog you would not get a hybrid?I did say if you breed two animals of a kind you would get an animal of the same kind. You will never get a hybrid.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The rather Arab-looking Barack Obama is a hybrid of African and American parentage.The domestic cat is a hybrid of the African wildcat and the Jungle wildcat. If you breed two humans, you get a human.If you breed two canines, you get a canine.If you breed two equines, you get an equine.

Fair enough, but you're deliberately avoiding my QUESTION and pretending that a point I stated as a tautology is the question : that you believe you know better than science is not in doubt.So to restate :how come you know so much better than all the expert CHRISTIAN Baraminologists who spend their whole career putting this stuff together, they have dog/wolf as a single Baramin (I will be annoyed if you dredge the literature for that one-in-a-million Baraminologist who just happens to concur with you on this).BTW they believe in the Bible every bit as much as you do, and, I imagine, know it in much more detail :http://www.conservapedia.com/Baraminology Now, which parts of the above excerpt are rubbish, and why?PS : Sorry about the cat/lion thing, I checked, it was something Peg said, not you, it's been a long thread.AND JUST FOR FUN EVERYBODY :Not a valid community | | Fandom Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.

well, there are these people who we shall call "creationists" who believe that a superbeing of ultimate power created not only everything else, but also the very earth you're walking on, and all plants and animals upon it, in the seas or in the air.these people don't believe in a secular theory called "the theory of evolution" because, they say, their god created all the kinds of animals in the same general time-frame that he created everythign else (generally called a week, although god slacked off on the last day, so six days, really).These people, the creationists, don't believe that things can change significantly - that everything that was created way back when was created as a specific type they call simply a "kind", and they firmly disbelieve it is possible in any way, shape or form for these "kinds" to change (because, they say, that would be called "evolution").They say, therefore, that whatever WAS a dog, will always be a dog, and whatever WAS a wolf, will always produce a wolf - that these two types of animals, these two "kinds" are forever and always separate and distinct.It's really a core, core part of their belief system (irrespective of anything called "evidence" that the godless heathens and pagans can produce using their evil system of belief called "the scientific method") - things don't change because god made kinds as they were, evolution can't hasn't and won't ever happen ("microevolution" notwithstanding, which can account for hair colour or size or other small, minor and insignificant changes).Now, silly me, I thought you were a creationist who believed that god made kinds as set, specific, unchanging Kinds (dogs always make dogs, you said - and wolves always make wolves) and that evolution therefore cannot ever happen through any known mechanism.Now you're telling me that dogs and wolves - two DISTINCT kinds - can have hybrid babies, and THOSE babies can have babies, and produce...NEW KINDS?As, and I'll ask you once again to answer the darned question, WHAT IS THE OFFSPRING OF A WOLF AND A DOG?IS IT A WOLF?IS IT A DOG?IS IT A NEW KIND?it must be a, b or c.Pick one. answer the question. do not bring up any other strawmen until you have.Edited by greyseal, : minor edit, Im sure I missed a few spelling mistakes...Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

ICANT, refrain from commenting on my reply here until you've covered everything else please - ignoring questions you don't like rather than saying "oops, sorry, I was wrong" is worse than bad form, it is cowardly. Now, which parts of the above excerpt are rubbish, and why?I'll say what I don't like - it's the non-exclusivity of it all.if it CAN "hybridize" it's the same "kind" (great, tell us what we don't know - dogs and wolves are very closely related, so close that they're the same species).if it CAN'T "hybridize" it might NOT be the same "kind"wow, gee. that's two sentences saying nothing about what is or is not a "kind" - for this to be in any way, shape or form useful beyond posing or to placate those capable of rectal-cranial inversions you need to shut out that pesky, massively oversized hole in the theory about what is NOT a kind and why.if you postulate "sparrows and ostriches look pretty similar...they could be the same kind", using your very, very lax "is/isn't" then you could easily say that, well, a sparrow is a proto-ostrich that got really small and can still fly through "degeneration" (i.e. it's size is a bad mutation, obviously).You could also very easily say that an ostrich is a degenerate proto-sparrow because it's gotten too big to fly, it's wings shrunk and now it has to run on the ground.the problem there is that this "kind" theory (if that's the core of it) is...less than adequate. it is essentially unfalsifiable, untestable, non-decisive and therefore utterly useless.is a dog/wolf a mutated bear that just got smaller and oddly-shaped?is an elephant a mutated crocodile that just grew too big?...you do realise I'm taking the piss to highlight the fact that this "theory" can be taken apart by a ten year old armed with a good book on taxonomy?Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

nowhere, but you did say: So of a wolf-dog which according to you is neither of the wolf nor dog kinds is an example of the creation of a new kind, falisifing the above quote.

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It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Hi jasonlang Well I believe in the literal Bible. I study the LXX, Hebrew, and Greek texts. But yes it is possible they know more than I do. But since the Holy Spirit leads me I will listen to Him rather than them.The statement in your reference :

quote:

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A baramin is a lineage of earthly life which is believed by Young Earth Creationists to be created by God during the creation week,

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I do not believe in a young earth so I put no faith in anything they say. You have my statements concerning kinds and hybrids I see no need to repeat them.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Now you're going on about a Young Earth which is completely off-topic. Wouldn't it be better to not reply at all than to reply that you refuse to reply ? My point in presenting the standard creationist kinds definition was to show you how far your definitions so far in this forum have been lacking, compared to a definition which most evolutionists already think is sucky.see my post #272 which you have not responded to.Give me a criteria by which rottweiler and chihuahua are the same kind, but which separates rottweilers and chihuahuas from wolves. 'Dog' is just a name after all so the names people use don't count. Remember if noone had seen a wolf before, we'd just think they were a type of dog.Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.

Hi ICANT. I posted two things I'd like a response about. Message 271and Message 275I feel both are pretty substantial in light of this discussion and your response would give us all a better understanding as to what a "kind" really is (or at least a more distinct line).

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan