Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others)

Hi hooah, I attempted to answer that question and it went right over you head.Your article said:

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however, the earliest finds believed to be from domestic dogs are a single jaw from 14,000 years before the present

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Domestic dogs existed 14,000 years ago.The same article asserts:

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Its origin from wolves is well established from genetic as well as behavioral and morphological data (1-3), but apart from this, available clues give no clear picture of its origin.

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There is: "no clear picture of its origin."Regardless of the origin of the domestic dog he did exist 14,000 years ago according to science. So he should be able to exist today as then.I keep reading of a extinction event that took place some 10k to 12k years ago.I also find the same event in the Bible in Genesis 1:2.Then I find in Genesis 1:20-25 where God called the animals, birds, fishes, etc forth after their kind. Therefore anything that pre-existed could have been called forth after its kind.So what is your problem with a wolf kind and a dog kind?Origionally all creatures came from the ground and therefore was made out of the same thing which would create similiar things in everything.And yes I know you believe it all came from a premortal soup.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

well I'm glad you realised that animals can go extinct, I'm just not getting why you don't get my problem with your "man can create a chihuahuah from wolves and dogs" idea if "dogs always make dogs" and "wolves always make wolves" EVEN IF you go for the "hybrids are possible" idea.in your strange world, you can mix a dog and a wolf, get a non-kind viable hybrid wolf-dog/dog-wolf creature that can somehow magically become both a great dane or a chihuahuah over time - yet you think that makes more sense than the scientific theory of evolution.I'm...wow. How tasty were those moccasins?by the way, with all these thousands of "hybrids", what's an actual dog - and why?Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

Hi hooah, You have the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 mixed up with the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27.The man created in Genesis 1:27 is said to have lived 930 years but that man never named anything.The man formed from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7 is the man that named the different kinds. There is no age stated for this man his wife, their son Abel, Cain or any of Cain's decendants. I think that is how I got involved in this discussion by asking for a list of the animals that would be necessary to produce all the different creatures we have today.I have an ark that I have designed according to the Bible description and in it I have 18 acres of storage space and can put much more. I just need a list to see if I can fit all the animals in it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi greyseal, I thought that was scientific evolution not theory. Please correct me it this is wrong.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

No, ICANT, the PAPER went right over your head. Please read the whole paper. The point of me linking this article (which you won't read thoroughly) is that wolves were domesticated to BE dogs, then bred to all the different breeds we see today.So, did god create a "wolf kind" then ancient biblical people domesticated them and god called forth these new "domestic dog kinds" aboard your mythical ark, as well as "wolf kind"?Wouldn't that be a slap in the face to god? His wolf kind wasn't good enough? Right. Now where did that domestic dog come from? A wolf? You got it. The whole point of this thread is for you creo's to giveus a working definition of "kind" so we can draw a line somewhere as to what one is. You have yet to do that. Things? What are these "things" we are all made of? Are these "things" similar to a "kind"?You still haven't properly responded to Message 275

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

We call them dogs but by necessity they aren't dogs because you earlier implied that dogs are a kind. And later implied hybrids are not a kind. So what are they if not dogs? If you didn't say that do you agree with the sentiment? If not, why? Could you please just spill the beans so the info doesn't have to be squeezed out one contradictory drop at a time. Or is it you daren't spill the beans because that would force all the contradictions onto the same page?Edited by lyx2no, : Grammar.

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You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

still so ignorant about the word "theory" I see. This one you'll have to look up yourself. It's not very difficult and the words aren't too long.

Hi hooah, So then according to you our domestic dog is a tame wolf.Then why does he not have the eating habits of the wolf.
Why does the dog with the strongest jaw strength have only 750 lbs per sq inch when a wolf has 1500 psi. You got all you are going to get as you asked for my opinion.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I may not be a college grad, but WHAT? An acre is a measurement for a flat surface. Here is a pretty nice, concise listing to start off with, I think.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Not exactly. Wolves were domesticated and bred into what we now see as domestic dogs. Come on ICANT, you claim to have bred animals, yet you feign ignorance on this? Glad to see I stumped you.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Take a tape measure and a note pad and go visit a couple of large zoos. That should give you some appreciation for the problem.Don't forget to measure the food storage and maintenance areas as well. Something they don't have that you will need on your ark is water storage, so better include estimates for that too.Then do some math and let us know what you learn.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

All right then, ICANT, since you simply refuse to answer the straightforward question, posed by numerous participants in this thread, of exactly what kind your hybrid wolf-dog is, let's try another one. Fair enough. Let's try just the beetles, all within the order Coleoptera. At this point, if you're going to count dogs and wolves as two different kinds, even if they're the same species, then we're now going to have to count each separate beetle species as a kind. If not, please give me a justification why not.Here are some numbers.There are at minimum 350,000 species of beetles alive today, with estimates that the total is really around 5 to 8 million. I'm going to use just that minimum number and also ignore all the species of beetles that have gone extinct since the Flood, or however far back you want to go.The size range for beetles is 0.3mm to 200mm long. For the sake of argument, let's take the average of the extremes to be the mean. So the average beetle is going to be 60mm long (or 2.3 inches, for us backward non-metric types). Sound like a reasonable size. No? Too big? Okay, I'll be really generous. Let's make the average just 1/4 of that figure. Now the average beetle is only going to be 15mm long. That's not a very big bug.Now it gets tricky. So far I have yet to uncover the average width or volume of our beetle friends, so we're going to have to do a bit of estimating. But before we do, let me point out that all we're trying to do is get an idea of the order of magnitude involved in this scenario. Please keep that concept in mind as we go.Let's take gander at a random selection of representatives from a number of different members of the Coleoetra order. (I picked these without looking, trying to be as random as possible.) The point is of course arguable, but our random sample seems to indicate a rough length to width ratio of 4:1. Again, this is just an estimate. All I'm trying to do is get a grip on the order of magnitude we're dealing with.So being generous and rounding even past our significant digit, we can say that your average run of the mill beetle is about 15mm long and 4mm wide (0.6 by 0.2 inches). Thus the total area taken up by our average beetle is 60mm². Still sound reasonable and in accord with our experience of beetles?350,000 different species of beetles times 60mm² is (after a bit of fiddling) 21km² of area taken up if we laid just one representative each of every known species of beetles with no space in between, like a giant beetle carpet. Oops, if this is the Ark then we need two of each kind. Now that's 42km² of beetles.Now for the big finish. Converting km² to acres we get 10,378 acres. Of beetles.So, you've got 18 acres of storage space on the Ark. We need to fit in 10,378 acres of just beetles, with no other creatures at all on board.Even if we have to adjust my initial numbers down by an order of magnitude, making beetles really, really tiny, I would venture to say that you've got a bit of a packing problem ahead of you.Final question: what is the standard or definition of kind that makes wolves and dogs different kinds but that would allow you to reduce the number of kinds of beetles down to something that would fit on your Ark?Edited by ZenMonkey, : Correcting html error that gave km rather than square km.

And to make it even more clear:When you breed two of this beetle: You never get this beetle: Or any other "kind" for that matter. Therefore, all these beetles are different kinds. Ergo, you've got a space problem. {ABE}: Seems you don't have a aspace problem afterall, at least not with the beetles. Ignore my post.Edited by Huntard, : math was off, therefore last sentence added.

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I hunt for the truthI am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

but it doesthe 'kinds' are those animals that could 'multiply'And when you add genetics to the equation, the kinds could multiply and produce a great variety within thier specific genus.I cant go any further then this because genesis does not individually name all the different kinds. But there certainly were multiples of kinds created as can be seen in the fossil record by the burst of life that we see in the early days.And further evidence of how these kinds can diversify in features is seen in the human kind. We are now made up of many different nationalities with different traits, different sizes and colours.

the old testament talks about dogs, but not in the domestic sense....if you read any of the mentions in the Ot about 'dogs' you'll see that back then they were spoken of as wild scavangers, not family pets....isrealites didnt even keep them as working dogs for this reason.So its all well and good trying to define the animals we have today, but we cant assume that the animals in ancient times were the same as we have today. If dogs have come from wolves, then it is in perfect harmony with the bibles description of them as being wild scavanger animals.And if they did come from wolves (which they likely did) then Noah needed only take two wolves on the ark and as those two wolves bred, they could have produced the great variety we now have.