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Author Topic:   Who designed the ID designer(s)?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 396 (616962)
05-25-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by RAZD
05-24-2011 8:56 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
RAZD writes:
Hi Catholic Scientist,
Assuming he did have a valid deduction for a god, ... Especially if he has that evidence via the deduction.
Point 1: he doesn't. I looked at the video, and it defines what is seen to be intelligent and then concludes that because it is intelligent that it must be due to a designer. There was nothing there about a prediction.
Point 2: getting from discovering intelligence in the world to a designer is a big leap of faith, getting from that designer to the god of the bible is another big leap of faith.
Point 3: logic is not fact\evidence, and logic alone is not enough to be a scientifically valid conclusion (no matter how much some would like it to be). Especially bad logic.
Enjoy.
Think about it this way:
Faith is a personnal experience that only the individual knows if they're employing or not. If someone was convinced by some thing that an Intelligent Designer exists, and they were not employing faith in their maintanence of the belief that the designer exists, then they are not taking the designer on faith. Regardless of how good their evidence is, or if you can make their argument look like a statement of faith, it really comes down to how they've come to accept the belief.
You know what I mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 05-24-2011 8:56 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2011 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 05-26-2011 8:37 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 197 of 396 (616977)
05-25-2011 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by New Cat's Eye
05-25-2011 10:48 AM


Re: Still a form of faith
I think a lot of people who are not theistic or religious and who don’t have ‘faith’ are quite willing to accept the idea of an intelligent designer (in the broad as opposed to the specifically Christian fundamentalist sense of the phrase). Lots of people I know who don’t give the sort of topics considered at EvC much consideration at all subscribe to a sort of vague form of intelligent design on the simple basis that they think the world is just too ordered to be completely random.
You know what I think of such arguments. I would say that they haven’t really thought through the problems with that position. But if they are not interested in analysing the question particularly deeply and the simple fact of order in the world leads them to that conclusion then I don’t think ‘faith’ is an entirely appropriate description.
In short — I think I agree with you on this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-25-2011 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-25-2011 1:15 PM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 396 (616984)
05-25-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Straggler
05-25-2011 12:39 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
In short — I think I agree with you on this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2011 12:39 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2011 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 199 of 396 (617011)
05-25-2011 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by New Cat's Eye
05-25-2011 1:15 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
You've let yourself go since you last posted a picture of yourself here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-25-2011 1:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 200 of 396 (617034)
05-25-2011 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by RAZD
05-24-2011 9:01 AM


Re: Still a form of faith
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, I had redefined the word "intelligence" since it is the only way for us in science to explain natural world. And I proved it in my video series in video 3 and video 5 and video 22. No one had ever defined intelligence scientifically.
I knew that you will never see them but since I've already put them in Youtube, I think that it is good that you must look at them. They are all boring but if u know the contents, I think u will agree with me.
Edited by intellen, : No reason given.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by RAZD, posted 05-24-2011 9:01 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2011 4:14 PM intellen has replied
 Message 222 by RAZD, posted 05-25-2011 11:05 PM intellen has replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 201 of 396 (617037)
05-25-2011 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Dr Adequate
05-24-2011 2:41 AM


Re: A form of faith
Dr Adequate writes:
The intellectual force of your argument is equaled only by its lucidity of expression.
My English grammar maybe not good, but not my discoveries.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-24-2011 2:41 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 202 of 396 (617039)
05-25-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by intellen
05-25-2011 4:09 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
So would you say that your belief in Intelligent Design is faith based or evidence based?
Or is it a combination of the two? And if so where do you think the faith ends and belief in the validity of the evidence begins? Do they overlap? Would your faith allow you to see evidence any other way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 4:09 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 4:36 PM Straggler has not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 203 of 396 (617044)
05-25-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Percy
05-24-2011 8:43 AM


Re: A form of faith
Percy writes:
Hi Intellen, welcome to EvC!
It would help a great deal if you would make your arguments from scratch here in messages and just use links to webpages and videos as supporting references. You definitely do not want to leave the key parts of your arguments out of your messages.
I at first thought your message made no sense because you began your arguments at item 8 and left out what came before, causing the two items by themselves to read like nonsense. But after viewing your video I see that all you did was copy the text of slide 8 and slide 9 into your message.
Some comments about your video:
  1. It isn't a video, it's a slide presentation.
  2. It should only be used as a supporting reference.
  3. Playing a schmaltzy version of Go Tell It on the Mountain in the background is distracting and inconsistent with a science presentation. The Intelligent Design forum is for discussion of ID as a science, not a religion.
  4. One of the first slides says to first watch Video 6. You should have mentioned you want people to watch two videos, not one.
  5. You may want to wordsmith the slide where you say, "predicts the most intriguing predictions".
  6. You never describe the "boundary line between natural and intelligent".
  7. You never define the "principle of intelligence."
  8. You might want to wordsmith the slide where you say, "the 'non-existence of matter' is also must be real".
  9. You might want to wordsmith the slide where you say "the important of things".
About Video 6 which you say should be watched first, it appears to be a collection of unrelated and unsupported assertions that do not make much sense. For example, you say that your experiment with the egg and tissue paper (which is described in neither slide presentation) shows that the one object destroys and the other object supports, and that this means a natural process has no opposing sides, just one side. You need to explain yourself a bit more, because what you say in the slide presentation makes no sense.
--Percy
1. Yeah, OK.
2. Actually, that was my manuscript when I submit to NATURE PRECEDINGS. I've just broken them piece by piece so that they could be understood.
3. My discoveries pinpoint Jesus Christ as the Intelligent Designer. So the background music is consistent with that presentation.
4. Thank you for this. My videos are put in a series. So I had to remind those watchers who watch in the middle so that they could understand the new Intelligent Design
5. OK, thank you.
6. I described it in video 3, 5, 22. To make it simple, I'll write it here:
intellen = problem/solution + solution + solution
naturen = event
or let us make it clear
intellen = life + defense mechanism + sensory system
naturen = life + NO defense mechanism + NO sensory system
7. OK, in context of my discovery, the definition for the principle of intelligence is the principle of how an object or event or phenomenon is being made.
8. OK, thank you. But that is what I've found. Since intelligence follows opposite phenomena, then, I think that is the best explanation to describe natural phenomenon. What is the best phrase? Can you tell me?
9. OK thank you.
Yes, my experiment tells me, and in reality too, that intellen follows an opposite sides
this is
problem/solution..
a symmetry. But we know that a symmetry is an opposites, two sides. My experiment also tells me that intellen (with importance) is an asymmetry. It will look like this:
problem/solution+solution+solution+... (more solutions than problem)
So, we can easily conclude that naturen is not symmetry nor asymmetry. That means, nature has only one side. This is true. For example, if an earthquake occurs, then, it has no problem nor solution, for nature has no problem, nor solution. We define nature as neutral.
Edited by intellen, : No reason given.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Percy, posted 05-24-2011 8:43 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Percy, posted 05-26-2011 7:42 AM intellen has replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 204 of 396 (617045)
05-25-2011 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Straggler
05-25-2011 4:14 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
Straggler writes:
So would you say that your belief in Intelligent Design is faith based or evidence based?
Or is it a combination of the two? And if so where do you think the faith ends and belief in the validity of the evidence begins? Do they overlap? Would your faith allow you to see evidence any other way?
The new Intelligent Design is an evidence based since we can easily test it and falsify it. I conducted my experiment AFTER I've become a Christian. But I did the findings in scientific way.
Faith is more than science since it requires everything from a person.
Edited by intellen, : No reason given.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2011 4:14 PM Straggler has not replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 205 of 396 (617048)
05-25-2011 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by RAZD
05-24-2011 8:56 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
RAZD writes:
Hi Catholic Scientist,
Assuming he did have a valid deduction for a god, ... Especially if he has that evidence via the deduction.
Point 1: he doesn't. I looked at the video, and it defines what is seen to be intelligent and then concludes that because it is intelligent that it must be due to a designer. There was nothing there about a prediction.
Point 2: getting from discovering intelligence in the world to a designer is a big leap of faith, getting from that designer to the god of the bible is another big leap of faith.
Point 3: logic is not fact\evidence, and logic alone is not enough to be a scientifically valid conclusion (no matter how much some would like it to be). Especially bad logic.
Enjoy.
1. My new discoveries had predictions. There are almost, I think, seven and counting.
2. My discoveries are not big leap of faith since everybody could test and falsify them. No one had ever defined "intelligence" scientifically and set boundary line between natural to intelligent. Even our best scientists today could never do that.
3. Yes, logic is not everything. That is why I had experiment, arguments and definitions.
Edited by intellen, : No reason given.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 05-24-2011 8:56 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 05-25-2011 4:46 PM intellen has replied
 Message 211 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-25-2011 5:19 PM intellen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 206 of 396 (617049)
05-25-2011 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by intellen
05-25-2011 4:43 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
Please place Jesus Christ in the lab so that we can test the designer and the method he uses to influence or direct biological design.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 4:43 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 4:58 PM jar has replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 207 of 396 (617051)
05-25-2011 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
05-25-2011 4:46 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
jar writes:
Please place Jesus Christ in the lab so that we can test the designer and the method he uses to influence or direct biological design.
That is impossible since, by definition, He is God, therefore, that is impossible. Unless you can easily manipulate Him. But the good is that our science is telling us that in nature, God really exist. This was proven by naturalistic methodology in science. Why can't u accept it? Because of ur religion or what?

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 05-25-2011 4:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 05-25-2011 5:04 PM intellen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 208 of 396 (617053)
05-25-2011 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by intellen
05-25-2011 4:58 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
intellen writes:
jar writes:
Please place Jesus Christ in the lab so that we can test the designer and the method he uses to influence or direct biological design.
That is impossible since, by definition, He is God, therefore, that is impossible. Unless you can easily manipulate Him. But the good is that our science is telling us that in nature, God really exist. This was proven by naturalistic methodology in science. Why can't u accept it? Because of ur religion or what?
Sorry but until you place Jesus on the lab table to test you have nothing but unsupported assertions.
Come back when you have some evidence.
Thank you for playing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 4:58 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 5:07 PM jar has replied

  
intellen
Member (Idle past 4356 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 05-23-2011


Message 209 of 396 (617056)
05-25-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
05-25-2011 5:04 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
jar writes:
intellen writes:
jar writes:
Please place Jesus Christ in the lab so that we can test the designer and the method he uses to influence or direct biological design.
That is impossible since, by definition, He is God, therefore, that is impossible. Unless you can easily manipulate Him. But the good is that our science is telling us that in nature, God really exist. This was proven by naturalistic methodology in science. Why can't u accept it? Because of ur religion or what?
Sorry but until you place Jesus on the lab table to test you have nothing but unsupported assertions.
Come back when you have some evidence.
Thank you for playing.
Now u r making a demand that is impossible. You are not making science now. You are already making religion. Then, we cannot agree. I talked science, u talked ur religion.

Nothing makes sense in science except in the light of the new Intelligent Design .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 05-25-2011 5:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 05-25-2011 5:10 PM intellen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 210 of 396 (617057)
05-25-2011 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by intellen
05-25-2011 5:07 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
I talk no religion, you are the one claiming Jesus is the designer.
Now put him on the table so we can test your assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 5:07 PM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by intellen, posted 05-25-2011 5:19 PM jar has replied

  
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