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Author | Topic: Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zi ko Member (Idle past 3647 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
You're right.
If antilope is killed or not the watching antilope through empathy feels the threat. If scene is repeated this danger knowledge is transferred through empathy to the siblings and other members, where is being through experience and again empathy reinforced and so on. After many generations this knowlwdge coloured by fear acts on the genome for the appropriate change.
Please explain in your own words. I need to take issue with you here as my field is cognitive psychology. Emotion does not 'colour thoughts'. Core beliefs assign valency to thoughts; but not emotion. Empathy is the ability to understand another persons emotional state: nothing more. I didnt say thoughts, i said information.I say the same about empathy, as a start. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
What i am proposing to is just a theory, a hypothesis if you like, and all above yoy ask are to complicated to be answered even by special scientist. Sorry, zi ko, this is just evasion. If you have a "theory" or even a "hypothesis" then you must be able to answer these questions. To not do so indicates you are presenting nothing more than your personal subjective speculations. I am hoping for more. If you have none then you seem to have nothing. Edited by AZPaul3, : edit ... duh.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
The empathy felt allows the organism to understand what the observed organism is going through.
You need to establish that empathy can then go on to affect the alleles. You have yet to do so. Until you can do that (in your own words) you are left pissing in the wind.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3647 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Sorry, zi ko, this is just evasion. If you have a "theory" or even a "hypothesis" then you must be able to answer these questions. To not do so indicates you are presenting nothing more than your personal subjective speculations. I am hoping for more. If you have none then you seem to have nothing. You ask more it is needed. I quote from Wikipedia: "All scientific knowledge and theories are based on two things: observation and consistent logic. A theory is a logical explanation for observations. A good, scientific theory also proposes a set of new observations that could test a theory's power to explain. Once technology, time or funding catches up with the theory, these observations can be made, which can either support or invalidate the theory. This ability to be tested, and the potential for the theory to be invalided by the experiment, is the essence of falsifiability.[/qs] Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3647 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
The empathy felt allows the organism to understand what the observed organism is going through. You need to establish that empathy can then go on to affect the alleles. You have yet to do so. Until you can do that (in your own words) you are left pissing in the wind. Establishing or not it is to come from other scientists, other than me surely.This is the procedure and essense of falsifiability. i quote from Wikipedia: All scientific knowledge and theories are based on two things: observation and consistent logic. A theory is a logical explanation for observations. A good, scientific theory also proposes a set of new observations that could test a theory's power to explain. Once technology, time or funding catches up with the theory, these observations can be made, which can either support or invalidate the theory. This ability to be tested, and the potential for the theory to be invalided by the experiment, is the essence of falsifiability. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Establishing or not it is to come from other scientists, other than me surely.This the procedure of falsifiability. Ha ha. You idiot. Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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I have to agree with Larni an this one. You do not know what science or the scientific method are.
You have an idea. That is all. You have no observations upon which to base this idea. You have no proposed mechanism to tested now or in the future. To say that "information unspecified as to type, character or form gets into the body by some unknown means and is changed by some unknown mechanism into something else as yet unspecified based upon an emotion then some unknown mechanism somehow recognises this information as 'benficial' and somehow gets it to the genome and in some undescribed way can alter the base pairs of a somehow specifically targetted gene" is not any type of theory or hypothesis germain to the quote you give and warrents no further consideration by any researchers. If you want to present this idea with any efficacy at all you need to fill in the holes with a clear chain of observations from specific defined "information" through to observed results giving at each step some proposed mechanisms. Until then, zi ko, you have nothing to offer.
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Meddle Member (Idle past 1298 days) Posts: 179 From: Scotland Joined: |
After many generations this knowlwdge coloured by fear acts on the genome for the appropriate change. This is what I've been wondering about since you first proposed your suggestion (sorry, at this stage it doesn't even seem to be a hypothesis), just when about does this empathy kick in to influence evolution? After all antelope still die.Now consider cystic fibrosis as another example. At my work some of the patients we monitor with CF have one or two other siblings with this genetic disorder. So here we have examples of mothers giving birth to multiple children with CF despite having experience of what this disorder can do. Conversely it has been calculated that the most common mutant allele that causes CF originated some 52,000 years ago. Can you explain this?
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3647 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
You have an idea. That is all. You have no observations upon which to base this idea. You have no proposed mechanism to tested now or in the future. To say that"information unspecified as to type, character or form gets into the body by some unknown means and is changed by some unknown mechanism into something else as yet unspecified based upon an emotion then some unknown mechanism somehow recognises this information as 'benficial' and somehow gets it to the genome and in some undescribed way can alter the base pairs of a somehow specifically targetted gene" is not any type of theory or hypothesis germain to the quote you give and warrents no further consideration by any researchers. If you want to present this idea with any efficacy at all you need to fill in the holes with a clear chain of observations from specific defined "information" through to observed results giving at each step some proposed mechanisms.Until then, zi ko, you have nothing to offer. You can call it an idea. But remember it is part of the comprehensive theory of Neuro-genic evolution.(http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) Information role on evolution and its mechanisms is already established by innumerable works on epigenetics and those by Shapiro, B. Wright. Dobshansky , Weismann, father of Ms theory and Darwin himself had aknowledged its significance.So sadly enough your critic is adressed to them and many others as well, not exactly to me. My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by zi ko, : No reason given. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4538 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
zi ko writes: My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution And since the overwhelming majority of life on this planet, past and present, has evolved and flourished without anything like a nervous system or neural network of any kind, your conjecture has dropped dead before leaving the starting gate. This horse is dead no matter how hard you beat it. Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs. -Theodoric Reality has a well-known liberal bias.-Steven Colbert I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.- John Stuart Mill
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3647 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Sorry. There some confusion here becouse of a proposed theory of neuro-genik evolution (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) by me on another thread.
Empathy is atype of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism.It starts functioning as the organism has neural tissue. The antilope may dy, but the watchinf other members of family or tribe. The CF example has nothing to do with my theory.I dont deny mutations not either natural selection. These cases are explained as before. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3647 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Sorry. There some confusion here becouse of a proposed theory of neuro-genc evolution (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) by me on another thread.
Empathy is a type of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism.It starts functioning as the organism gets neural tissue. The antilope may die, but the watching other members of family or tribe still live and they transfer the information by empathy. The CF example has nothing to do with my theory.I dont deny mutations not either natural selection. These cases are explained as before. Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
You can call it an idea. But remember it is part of the comprehensive theory of Neuro-genic evolution.(http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) Objection, m'lud: it's not a theory, it is a unsubstantiated hypothesis, at best. Sustained: the counsel will not refer to an unsubstantiated, at best hypothesis as a theory. Carry on.
My new ideas are the "thinking neural system" and empathy role on evolution. Empathy is atype of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism. No, no, no! Bad crank! You've been told what empathy is by me on this very thread. Wat hing some one smile will not affect your genes. And they are unsubstantiated, sigh. Edited by Larni, : No reason given. Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2520 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Empathy is a type of information. It follows the same paths as information does. And the same mechanism. It starts functioning as the organism gets neural tissue. The antilope may die, but the watching other members of family or tribe still live and they transfer the information by empathy. The CF example has nothing to do with my theory.I dont deny mutations not either natural selection. These cases are explained as before. Show me a print out of the amount of information transferred in this way as read by an information detector.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
We might have to go to bacteria to see the basic interactions between cell-environment, where engineering systems are , i think, the precursories of neural tissue.
Then please do. Please cite mechanisms by which specific stimuli result in specific mutations, and only those mutations. From everything I have read, mutations that occur in bacteria are random with respect to fitness. For example, mutations which confer antibiotic and phage resistance occur in the absence of either antibiotics or phage. This is the findings made by Luria and Delbruck as well as the Lederbergs (google "fluctuation experiment mutations" and "plate replica experiment" for more info). It's not as if bacteria sense antibiotics in the environment and then make specific mutations in specific genes to counteract the bactericidal activity of antibiotics. Mutations occur throughout the genome, most of which do not confer resistance to antibiotics.
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