Many Christians Lack Responsibility

The entire Christian mindset that I was raised with has been laughed at and denigrated by many people. In this thread, I want to discuss how beliefs influence behavior. Specifically:1) If our own righteousness is "as filthy rags" and we are expected to "Let Go And Let God", does that imply that we are abdicating our personal responsibility by allowing God to fix things?2) If we believe that Satan is alive and well on planet Earth, does that serve as a cop out? In other words, if we say that the world is in a mess due to Original Sin and figure that nothing will ever really improve until Jesus comes back, is that an abdication of our responsibility as members of the human race?3) Does God expect us to be mature, rational thinking beings or does He expect us to be unquestioning obedient servants?Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

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1) If our own righteousness is "as filthy rags" and we are expected to "Let Go And Let God", does that imply that we are abdicating our personal responsibility by allowing God to fix things?

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Isaiah was talking to his audience, not us today. So what we have to discern is whose acts of righteousness were like filthy rags. Isaiah is talking about those who sin against those who were gladly doing right and remembering God's ways.So unless one is "sinning" against people who are doing right, their righteous acts are not "as filthy rags".The catch phrase, let go and let God, isn't really abdicating personal responsibility although some tend to present it that way. IMO, it is a bumper sticker version of the the serenity prayer. People tend to have control issues. We try or want to control everything. Sometimes we do have to let go and understand what we actually have control of and what we don't and accept that we can't control everything.IOW, what Christians cannot change (don't have control over) they turn it over to God. People without religion accept what they cannot change and let it go.

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2) If we believe that Satan is alive and well on planet Earth, does that serve as a cop out? In other words, if we say that the world is in a mess due to Original Sin and figure that nothing will ever really improve until Jesus comes back, is that an abdication of our responsibility as members of the human race?

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Whether Satan is a cop out or not depends on what you consider his role to be.If he is viewed as working for God as a means to test humanity and we take responsibility for our actions in these tests, then no Satan isn't a cop out.If he is viewed as working on his own to make sure we fail and we blame him for our actions instead of taking responsibility, then yes, it is a cop out.

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3) Does God expect us to be mature, rational thinking beings or does He expect us to be unquestioning obedient servants?

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God expects us to mature and become spiritually mature and rational thinking beings, just as we expect our children to mature.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

It is interesting that you bring up the analogy of a parent/child relationship. While many parents don't expect their children to depend on them their entire lives, the same may not be true of God.Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.David also mentions in Psalm 73:23-24
Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.The same type of daily relationship cannot be said to exist between parent and adult child.

I would maybe suggest that the relationship with God has multiple aspects, and although the parent/child analogy would perfectly represent one or more of these aspects, it would not represent others.There could be as many analogies as there are aspects of the relationship

ofcourse it does, it's actually the mother of all cop-outs! Without the notion of Satan messing with God's plan, Christians would have to accept that God is responsible for bad things as well as good ones. Now they can absolve God's responsibility when bad things happen to good people and just brush it off as caused by Satan's influence or the original sin (another byword for Satan's influence). A benevolent God can't exist without Satan.

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

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Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

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Think about it. Proverbs is a compilation of wise sayings over a period of time. Creative words from wise men. Do you feel that one sentence really characterizes the wisdom given in Proverbs?Notice several verses later: Don't rely on your own understanding for what? We really don't know the context in which the statement was originally made. All we have is human understanding, even when discerning what another human is telling us.David wrote a poem/song. He wasn't literally holding God's physical hand. Whether our parents are present or not, they are with us and all that they taught us is with us for counseling.I'm sure you've heard this wise saying from Proverbs: Overall, I don't think the wise men were telling people to check their reasoning at the door or that God wants us to remain children.God doesn't want us to remain children. The new covenant he describes in Jeremiah is really a description of a more mature relationship. He no longer has to teach or discipline, just as we don't need to continue teaching or disciplining our adult children. What we have taught them is now "written on their hearts" and they will not turn from it.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

They are not mutually exclusive, as I discovered when I learnt about rational thinking.I think Christians do use satan as an excuse for sin. Speaking from experience though, Phat, sin can only be dealt with through grace. God has dealt with me through grace, as the NT expounds. we are being sanctified. That process happens through the Holy Spirit prompting us and convicting us of sin. Only God is righteous. We have all inherited the sinful nature. This is the message of our bible, Phat. No personal morals will affect what is sin and what is righteous in God's eyes.Therefore, if you want to clean up sin in your life, it's only possible through Christ. If you want to alter your morals and play the moral highground, and do good works - then join a religion that has a set of rules, or try and improve yourself, but know this; you will still be judged according to God's standards - not your own moral idolatry.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Am I righteous? No. The Lord is my righteousness. Am I more moral than you? It is a modern mindset.If you are more moral than I, then to God it is cakes. If I eat 10 cakes and you eat 4 and say that you are better than I, then what does this mean? It means that nowadays you try to eat less, but you have never eaten "none whatsoever". Therefore we are all guilty of taking part in the sinful nature.My advice to you Phat, is not to hang around unbelievers too much. For what relation does light have with darkness? When I hung around with unbelievers, eventually I almost became one, and started understanding their arguments, and agreeing. But when you are in the mud it doesn't seem dirty. First step out of the mud, and give that time to God, Phat, and it will start to look dirty once more.

So will God judge himself against his own hypocritical moral attrocities i.e. murdering innocent babies and children (infanticide), commanding the rape, pillage and murder of entire cities (ethnicide), condoning the selling off of daughters as sex slaves, commanding the taking of slaves and sex slaves, etc. etc.Why is it ok for God to do these things and then sentance someone to hell for eternity for picking his nose or throwing a candy wrapper on the street? Your moral justice system is a joke!Or do we just sweep these attrocities under the rug while he sentances the entire human race to torture and torment in a burning lake of fire for eternity?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

You are a prime example of this modern mindset I spoke about. thankyou.Don't you see that judging God according to what you think, as a man from the dust, IS SIN.Can't you see the problem logically? you are supposed to be the rational one.Think about it. The bible says that to question God is sin. Job was told to "curse God and die"....but he never in his suffering, thought he knew better than God...For my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts. For God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. And another scripture is "for God is not a man that he can lie"....If God says He is righteous, and His word is true, then he can't lie and say he is righteous when he is not.Your problem is that your own morals REQUIRE that you sin against God by speaking falsely against him, or WORSE - from ignorance.See the contradiction yet?

The thing is Phat, God is more powerful than Satan, so ultimately God is responsible for ALL the evil that happens on Earth.The first chapter of the Book of Job informs us that Satan cannot do evil to Job:Job 1:12The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. If God was truly good then everyone would have this protection. So your lovely God is actually the most evil, putrid, and disgusting entity ever created. Yahweh makes Hannibal Lector look like Santa Claus.

You talk about logic then you post this:

It is a none sequitur. It does not follow logically, and shows that you don't understand the message of the bible, wrote by believers, not unbelievers, for the Jews are not a stupid people - if they wrote something that seems to be a problem FOR YOU, this doesn't mean that they think the same as you, as this is also fallacious.God gave the law so that man would CHOOSE to not do evil. As for all of evil, the book of Revelation tells us that this present system of things will pass away in God's time - Him being God.By contradicting the very definition of God in the bible, by saying he is evil, or responsible, then the conclusions that follow will only be fallacious because you are starting with a premise which is not actually present in the bible. You are altering the definition of God, as written by the Jews, to fit your own personal morals.example. I write a book that says Harry Potter is not a slytherin....and you look at instances in that book which indicate TO YOU, that he must be slytherin, such as speaking in parseltongue, therefore you conclude fallaciously that he is slytherin.You can't wre-write my book according to your own standards!

That's the one part of my post which I couldn't articulate. You have to deal with the rest. I assume that you think that according to the bible, it is okay for a person who doesn't believe in God to judge him.I must laugh at that conclusion, considering what it says about sin, and mankind.