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Author Topic:   Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 305 (199717)
04-16-2005 6:51 AM


Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
Jesus is the speaker in this scripture.
I have a very simple question:
What was written about Jesus in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
Please site the scripture and explain how the author is refering to Jesus within the timeframe the work was written and the intended audience.
Admins: Accuracy and Inerrancy please, Thanks.

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 305 (199746)
04-16-2005 10:14 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 305 (199786)
04-16-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
04-16-2005 6:51 AM


What was written about Jesus in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
i'm going to go with nothing. but since this is essentially an undefendable opinion, i'm going to wait till people actually post verses, and start shooting them down.
there might be a few vague mentions about messiahs that jesus might fit into, or eventually fit into (such as apocalyptic prophesies), but we'll see.
also, this going to seem strange to some. but in the interests to literalness, we should restrict this debate to just the set of books jesus actually mentioned.
Torah (Law)
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Nevi'im (Prophets)
Joshua
Judges
Samuel
Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Twelve Minor Prophets:
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephanian
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
Ketuvim (Writings)
Psalms
please not that this rules out the following books as valid for discussion, since jesus did not talk about them:
Proverbs
Job
The Song Of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra
Nehemiah
Chronicles
as well as the new testament, apocrypha, and pseudpegraphica.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 305 (199805)
04-16-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
04-16-2005 6:33 PM


The Law of Moses
quote:
also, this going to seem strange to some. but in the interests to literalness, we should restrict this debate to just the set of books jesus actually mentioned.
I do want what was written about Jesus in the specific documents Jesus supposedly said wrote about him as quoted in the opening scripture.
The Law of Moses, which isn't necessarily the Torah (5 Books)
The Prophets (which you listed)
and the Psalms
Deuteronomy and Joshua speak of the book of the Law. One book, singular.
quote:
please not that this rules out the following books as valid for discussion, since jesus did not talk about them:
Not to be rude, but for this thread I am confining the discussion to the books that Jesus mentioned in the opening scripture.
I don't really want this thread to go amuck, if that's possible.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2881 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 5 of 305 (199818)
04-17-2005 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
04-16-2005 8:26 PM


Re: The Law of Moses
Hello Dawn,
I've never heard this question before, but I love it and suspect there is a surprising answer although I am going to have to do some serious research in order to find it.
For the sake of conversation, let me project that the references will have something to do with the anointing of kings, priests and prophets. It is my opinion that Jesus fully intended to sit on the throne of Israel. (working within the myth, of course)
The holy scriptures do have a lot to say about the position of the anointed one (AKA the Christ) which term was applied, in the main, to Israeli priests and kings but also to at least one foreign king.
Thus, when Jesus says that the scriptures refer to him, he is speaking in terms of his ultimate office, his royal person, not his homespun identity as the illegitimate son of a Nazarene carpenter.
A little something to think about.
db
This message has been edited by doctrbill, 04-16-2005 11:03 PM

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1561 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 305 (199822)
04-17-2005 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
04-16-2005 6:51 AM


All the OT Messianic prophecies
Your question refers to the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament that Christians take to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and Jesus is referring to these as the things written about Him in the Law and the Prophets. I found a site that appears to be inclusive of all the Messianic references but I haven't read through the list carefully to be sure.
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
Old Testament Scriptures That Describe The Coming Messiah
Each reference on the following list gives first the Messianic Prophecy (paraphrased) and Where the prophecy appears in the Old Testament (written between 1450 BC and 430BC) and then gives Jesus’ fulfillment of the prophecy in the New Testament (written between 45 and 95 AD)
The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 propheciesnot all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39; John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . sorry, we got carried away!
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a stone the builders rejected who will become the head cornerstone Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The Gospel according to Isaiah Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the arm of the LORD (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at . . . year of the LORD’s favor) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-16-2005 11:53 PM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 305 (199836)
04-17-2005 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
04-16-2005 8:26 PM


Re: The Law of Moses
Not to be rude, but for this thread I am confining the discussion to the books that Jesus mentioned in the opening scripture.
I don't really want this thread to go amuck, if that's possible.
that was the purpose of the list, actually. we're on the same page here. i just want to explicitly state books that were OUT.
Deuteronomy and Joshua speak of the book of the Law. One book, singular.
deuteronomy seems to be referring to itself, and claiming authorship by moses. which is impossible, of course.
as for joshua, here's one reference:
quote:
Jos 8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up [any] iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
quote:
Deu 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up [any] iron [tool] upon them.
quote:
Exd 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
and here's another:
quote:
Jos 23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom [to] the right hand or [to] the left;
quote:
Num 20:17 Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink [of] the water of the wells: we will go by the king's [high] way, we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders.
joshua is clearly referring to more than one book. he is at the very least refering to exodus and numbers, and probably leviticus, if not the completed torah. in modern terms, the torah IS one book, singular. the book names are five of many sub-headings, each drawn from the first word of the section.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-17-2005 05:05 AM

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 8 of 305 (199840)
04-17-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
04-17-2005 12:51 AM


jesus h. christ.
lets take these a few at a time then, shall we?
let's start at the beginning, and of course rule out the CHRISTIAN literature. it's simply not what jesus was referring to.

The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15
to the serpent:
quote:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
the devil/satan/lucifer/whatever is not the son of a snake. the animal in question is strictly a serpent. the other part of the curse is as follows:
quote:
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
this is not only a description of a snake, but an explanation of why it is what it is. if this were the devil, he'd be a snake. snakes go about on their stomachs, and lick the ground as they go. if we wanna be really literal, it might even be referring to an earthworm, as those really do eat dirt.
also, christ's heal was not wounded, nor was the devil's head crushed. this simply does not fit. and while we're on the topic, no duh the messiah will a descendent of eve:
quote:
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
everyone else is too.

The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3
yes, but.
quote:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
this is not a messianic prophesy of any kind. it's about the establishment of an israeli state. read the verse before it:
quote:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
he will be a blessing, because those that bless ISRAEL will be blessed. nothing to do with any messiahs of any kind.
it should also be mentioned that the messiah being a descendant of abraham is a bit of a no-brainer. david was a descendent of abraham. the messiah must be of the davidic line. but we'll get to that later i suppose.

The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10
quote:
Gen 49:9 Judah [is] a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes [shall be] red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
this is prophesy of a sort, but not regarding the messiah. this is actually a BLESSING, delivered by jacob to each and every one of his sons while on his death bed. it is a blessing delivered strictly to the sons. here's the hint: "until Shiloh come."
he's saying that judah will be powerful and influential until his death. this probably has another meaning as well, regarding the split kingdoms. it's placing judah as the dominant, important kingdom, a trend followed in the rest of the bible. nothing to do with the bible.
but still, no duh.

The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19
quote:
Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.
and now the pay off:
quote:
Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
and after that:
quote:
Jos 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel.
wrong joshua.

The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7
let's find a more poetic source. here's the jps:
quote:
Psalm 2:5-7
Then He speaks to them in anger
   terrifying them in His rage,
   "But I have installed My king
   on Zion, My holy mountain!"
Let me tell of the decree:
   the LORD said to me,
   "You are My son,
   I have fathered you this day."
god sets the king on the mountain. god fathers the king that day. now, who wrote this psalm, do you suppose? i'm gonna guess david. it's just a guess.
saying it refers to christ is impossible. christ would have to have written it (as in, not through david) and considering it was written long before christ was born, that's impossible. also, "i have fathered you THIS DAY" is a little suspicious, don't you think? on what day was christ fathered? on the day he was set up as king of israel and judah? well, considering that never actually happened.... either way, it'd be blasphemy.
this verse cannot refer to jesus. it refers to david. it's about his coronation, and the politics of the ancient middle east. turns out in the middle east, calling kings living gods was quite the custom. since the israelites would have been unable to do that, they called them sons of god.
quote:
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
does this refer to jesus? it's plural. is he one of these guys?
quote:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11
quote:
Psalm 16:10 (A michtam of David)
For You will not abandon me to Sheol,
   or let Your faithful one see the Pit.
another psalm written either by or for david. that "me" is david. this also takes a bit of understanding of hebrew poetry. see the parallelism? "pit" is the parallel of "sheol" (hell/grave). "your faithful one" is the parallel of "me." ei: STILL david.
sorry, NOT a prophesy at all.

The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 propheciesnot all listed here)
let's just make a rule here. psalms are not prophesies. ever. you will see this play out a bit here. agains, this was written for or by david. it refers to david. and no one else. let's take them as they come.
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7
davis IS sneered at and mocked.
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16
quote:
Psalm 22:15-17: (For the leader; on ayyeleth ha-shahar. A psalm of David)
My life ebbs away:
   all my bones are disjointed;
   my heart is like wax,
   melting within me;
   my vigor dries up like a shard;
   my tongue cleaves to my palate;
   You commit me to the dust of death.
Dogs surround me;
   a pack of evil ones close in on me,
   like lions they maul my hands and feet.
now, this is part of a very graphic description of dying. but where's the bit about being peirced? the literal rendering is "dig at." the description is that of LIONS and DOGS. with teeth and claws, not hammers and nails.
still not referring to jesus.
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20
quote:
Psalm 22:18: (For the leader; on ayyeleth ha-shahar. A psalm of David)
I take count of all my bones
   while they look on and gloat.
it mentions above that the bones are separated. let's address the john verse:
quote:
Jhn 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
is referring to:
quote:
Exd 12:46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it
both of which are talking about the passover feast. also, more eating customs:
quote:
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:32 Therefore the children of Israel eat not [of] the sinew which shrank, which [is] upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.
jews not only do not eat the flesh around that area, but they are forbidden from removing or separatign the bones. if jesus should fulfill the passover requirements, as john suggests, his bones would not have been separated. therefor, the psalm cannot apply to jesus for another reason even if "separated" does not mean "broken" as it probably does.
quote:
Psa 34:19 Many [are] the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
Psa 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
the verse seems to be indicating the philosophy of "could be worse." still nothing to do with the messiah. on to lots?
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18
quote:
Psalm 22:19: (For the leader; on ayyeleth ha-shahar. A psalm of David)
They divide my clothes among themselves,
   casting lots for my garments.
now, i realize that this DOES happen in the nt. but lets look at how credible this argument, in light of the fact that the psalm cannot apply to jesus. it's obviously misreading the psalm, and misapplying it. how credible is the nt then?
in the gospels, the lot casting happens after the crucifixion. after the whipping. tell me now, why would a bunch of roman soldiers want a bunch of bloodied rags worn by a poor smelly homeless man? make an sense to you?

i think i'm gonna skip all the rest of the psalms. anyone object? i've tackled the important oft-quoted ones. i think we can now all see how the psalms are ALWAYS written frist-person, and usually by/for david, and NOT jesus, the messiah, or anyone else, except the ones that say otherwise. (there's a few marked "solomon" and "moses" i think)

The Messiah will be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14
quote:
Isaiah 7:10-17
And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'
But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.'
And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken. The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.'
now, we've discussed this verse a number of times here. but let's do it again.
here's some important points:
1. the hebrew does not contain the word virgin. it just doesn't.
2. this is a prophesy delivered strictly to ahaz, to be fulfilled within his own lifetime.
3. the child's name is IMMANUEL, not JESUS (Joshua).
4. it is not a messianic prophesy in the regards most think it is.
the prophesy is not the child immanuel. he is the SIGN of the prophesy, and of no consequence other than a time-keeping device. the prophesy is that aram and israel (whom ahaz of judah is fighting in isaiah 7:1) will be defeated. the child has nothing to do with this. he'll be just having his bar mitzvah when this happens.
not about jesus. at all.

i think that's enough for one night. i'm rather tired right now. however, i will admit that although none of these panned out, some of the other isaiah ones look promising.
but let's rule out one more right now:
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26
prophesies in daniel are not allowed. we're only discussing the books jesus himself mentioned, and those do not include the book of daniel. i'd investigate this time frame at length, but the point would be moot.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-17-2005 06:42 AM

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 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 12:51 AM Faith has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 305 (199841)
04-17-2005 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
04-17-2005 12:51 AM


Genesis
You missed one part of the OP.
Please site the scripture and explain how the author is refering to Jesus within the timeframe the work was written and the intended audience.
quote:
The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
1. This is not a Law.
2. How does Genesis 3:15 say that the Messiah specifically will be the offspring of the woman Eve. If she was the first woman, then all humans are her offspring.
3. Galations 4:4 does not refer to scripture.
quote:
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
Again not a Law and not specific to Jesus.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 12:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 305 (199845)
04-17-2005 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
04-17-2005 12:51 AM


Deuteronomy
quote:
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
This scripture doesn't mention the Messiah. God said He would raise up a prophet from among their brothers and that He would put His words in his mouth, and the prophet would tell them everything that God commanded.
How is this more specifically Jesus, as opposed to, the other prophets?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 12:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 04-17-2005 7:49 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 12:52 PM purpledawn has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 305 (199846)
04-17-2005 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
04-17-2005 7:40 AM


Re: Deuteronomy
This scripture doesn't mention the Messiah. God said He would raise up a prophet from among their brothers and that He would put His words in his mouth, and the prophet would tell them everything that God commanded.
How is this more specifically Jesus, as opposed to, the other prophets?
i addressed this one specifically. we know who it's referring to: joshua.
in reference to genesis:
1. This is not a Law.
genesis is a part of the torah. torah literally means "law." that makes genesis valid for discussion, unless it can be shown that it was not integrated into the torah until after jesus's time.
when jesus said "the law" he was referring The Torah, not just the codes of conduct contained in it. torah means law.
when jesus said "the prophets" he was referring to Nevi'im, and not just any prophetic book. nevi'im means prophets.
when jesus said "psalms" he meant JUST the book of psalms. psalms refers to the musical quality, or being set to music. psalm means song. this could be extended to song of songs and lamentations, but i doubt it does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 04-17-2005 7:40 AM purpledawn has replied

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 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 04-17-2005 11:44 AM arachnophilia has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 305 (199847)
04-17-2005 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
04-17-2005 12:51 AM


Psalms (Songs)
quote:
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
How is this song more specifically about Jesus, as opposed to, the kings of Israel or Judah?
quote:
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
How are these a reference to Jesus, as opposed to, the writer of the song?
The rest of the Psalms you listed are along the same lines. Explain how they are specifically Jesus and not the writer or singer of the song?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 12:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by arachnophilia, posted 04-17-2005 7:51 AM purpledawn has not replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 305 (199848)
04-17-2005 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
04-17-2005 7:49 AM


Re: Psalms (Songs)
psst. i've got most of these. go after the isaiah ones i left for later. everything after chapter 7.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 04-17-2005 7:49 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3574 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 305 (199854)
04-17-2005 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
04-17-2005 12:51 AM


Prophets
quote:
The Messiah will be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
Prophecy fulfilled in Isaiah 8. Explain why you think this sign, given centuries earlier, is for Jesus also?
quote:
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
This scripture doesn't speak of spiritual work, plus the translations don't agree on what the verse says.
Torah-Isaiah 8:23
23 For is there no gloom to her that was stedfast? Now the former hath lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but the latter hath dealt a more grievous blow by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, in the district of the nations.
quote:
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
Isaiah 35:4 says that God would come to save them, not an anointed one (messiah). What about the rest of the decree?
quote:
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
How is this specific to Jesus, as opposed to the writer?
You will need to explain how Isaiah 52/53 applies to specifically to Jesus or generally to a messiah. Jesus doesn't fit the bill.
quote:
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
No mention of a messiah.
quote:
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
I think God was speaking of himself as their Redeemer.
quote:
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at . . . year of the LORD’s favor) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
This is Isaiah talking. No mention of the messiah.
quote:
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
Speaks of a clan, not a city. Jesus didn't rule over Israel.
quote:
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
Speaks of a King. Jesus didn't become king.
quote:
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
Zechariah seems to be speaking and refering to himself.
quote:
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
Not speaking of a messiah or necessarily disciples, as opposed to, God and the people of Israel.
quote:
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45
This talks of God coming to his temple. How is this Jesus?
Was Jesus truly refering to scriptural one-liners that needed to be fulfilled?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-17-2005 12:51 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18457
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 15 of 305 (199862)
04-17-2005 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by arachnophilia
04-17-2005 7:31 AM


Re: Jesus (Your Boss) Christ
First off, I commend both Arachnophilia and Purpledawn for their scholastic foray into scriptural interpretation and/or the lack thereof. Also, to be fair, we must note that I am a Believer in Jesus Christ as being alive today..being the Son of God, and presiding over all created things. I am quite illiterate compared with critical scholars of the texts.
I will say, however, that one must examine the purpose for the belief that one has.
We ALL have presuppositions within our personal belief. For example, Doctrbill says
It is my opinion that Jesus fully intended to sit on the throne of Israel. (working within the myth, of course)
Thus, the idea of a myth is presupposed. Arachnophilia wants to limit the conversation to a non-christian context, thus, much of the explanation cannot be shared.
Arachnophilia writes:
let's start at the beginning, and of course rule out the CHRISTIAN literature.
The problem here is that your basic presupposition is that Jesus is NOT God incarnate. Of course you are going to tackle the text critically, admirably to be sure, yet remaining blind to the fact that the text was written in context to a spirit within a people.
Thus, even if a scripture or verse refers to David rather than Jesus, the text is STILL referring to the same Spirit present within both individuals. Prophecy often requires more than logic to figure out. Prophecy is interpreted through divine wisdom and not mere scholastic and critical interpretation. The Spirit is past, present, and future. The context is not merely the historical reference to a spirit or a feeling of long ago...the context is the very spirit that is NOW here.
Suffice it to say this much about that: The O.T. was written in the context of Israel. Jesus Himself even said that He came only for Israel.
NIV writes:
Matt 15:24-28= He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Notice how Jesus foreknows that He will soon also be sent to the Gentiles. The reason that it was not yet official was that Israel...as a nation...had yet to conclude that Jesus was NOT their Messiah. By so doing, Israel chose their fate. It was supposed to happen this way, however. Paul explains the Mystery:
NIV writes:
Rom 11:13-18= I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
The Bible has to be seen in the context of both the O.T. and the N.T. (Unless you choose to be Jewish..in which case I respect you, arach, but I do not agree with your logic) It was foreknown that the first would be last and the last would be first. In other words, Israel, the first chosen, would be blinded and unable to discern the truth about the Messiah. This happened so that the gentiles could then be allowed to be grafted in to the family. Through Israels rejection of the Messiah, reconciliation of ALL people was allowed.
One more thing, Arachnophilia. You have intellectual critique and knowledge, but whereupon is the source of your wisdom? Say you that God gives you wisdom? If so, God surely would not be so arrogant as to say "duh" .
Arachnophilia writes:
and while we're on the topic, no duh the messiah will a descendent of eve
Did it ever occur to you that the Messiah created Eve? Is that a "no duh" in your book?
And about that earthworm. If God were refering to a mere earthworm, why all of the concern?
The issue is not whether it was a snake, a serpant, a worm, or an iguana. The issue is this: What spirit embodied that critter? (Remember...two spirits...God (subset Son, Angels) and all of the other ones..Rebellion (subset Devil, demons, worldly spirit of arrogance, pride, vanity, etc..etc..)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by arachnophilia, posted 04-17-2005 7:31 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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