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Author Topic:   Biblical Creationism
The General
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 65 (48123)
07-31-2003 3:26 AM


Biblical Creationism
A.INTRODUCTION
In Part I, the different theories concerning mans origins were mentioned. I made note of about five different theories, made some comments on each and then promised to place more attention on the most prominent evolutionary theory: Darwin’s Natural Selection. The entire Part II was devoted to that. Part III dealt with the social problems associated with embracing Natural Selection. Therefore, here we are a Part IV. If you have not noticed, I am very critical of the various evolutionary theories, and most particularly of Natural Selection. However, in the conclusion of Part III, I asked the question: What is the alternative to Natural Selection? Part IV answers that question. PART IV: CREATION ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. Just as Natural Selection deals much with what happened after the world came into existence, so too does the Creation theory. I have presented the theory of Natural Selection. Now it is the Creationists turn.
Before I go on to discuss Biblical Creation, I would like to make note of four other theories that while not being as atheistic as Natural Selection are still mistaken.
The other note that I will now make is directed towards the Biblical Creationists. Christianity is often separated into two groups of people: Catholic and Protestant. Catholics are divided into Orthodox and Roman while Protestants can be divided into Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Mennonite, Baptist and so on... When I begin to discuss Biblical Creation, I will be quoting from numerous Books in the Bible. However, I will also be quoting from Books that are not part of the Protestant Bible. (Wisdom, Sirach, Macabbees etc.). Catholics read these Books as inspired Scripture. Protestants do not. I mean no offense to the Protestants by also quoting from them.
B. OTHER LESS KNOWN THEORIES
1.Pantheism
Pantheism is the belief that God is not a personality. Pantheists believe that all laws, forces, and objects are God. Pantheists believe that God is everything and everything is God. They also believe that God created the world. This makes their belief even more confusing because they believe that the world is also God. When confronted by pantheism I ask, is the painter the picture he draws? Of is the watch a watchmaker creates actually a watchmaker also? No. Obviously not. So why then would the Creator become the creation? Yet Pantheism sees this to be the case.
C.S Lewis wrote once, " When confronted with a cancer or a slum the pantheist will say, ‘If you could only see that this too is God’ The Christian replies, ‘don’t talk such damned nonsense.’"
Indeed, pantheism is nonsense.
2.Dualism
Dualism is the belief that there are two mutually antagonistic forces in the universe: Good and Evil. They are independent of each other and neither made the other. Neither have the right to consider them God. One is the lover of good and mercy; the other is the lover of cruelty and hatred. Each backs its own view.
If Dualism is true then the bad power must be a being that likes badness for its own sake. Truly though, who is like this? When people are bad, it is for one of two reasons. The first is he (or she) could be a sadist, that is, one who is cruel because it causes a sensual pleasure inside them. The second reason people are bad is for the sake of something they think that they can get of it. However, to achieve their end they must apply bad means. A quick look at each of these reasons will push Dualism aside.
As already stated, the first reason for being bad was sadism. This is a sexual perversion, but in order for something to be perverted, there must first be an idea of normal sexuality. It follows that the belief that this Bad Power who is said to be on equal footing with the Good Power, and that one can love badness in the same way that some love goodness, are both preposterous. For, in order to be bad one must first have good things to pursue in the wrong way, and he must have good impulses that were originally good in order to later pervert them. But if one is completely bad or evil, then one cannot supply oneself with good things to desire and good impulses. In order to get good desires of good impulses (even if later they will be perverted) one must be getting some things from the Good Power, which then makes neither power independent. Yet, Dualism claims that the Powers are independent. To Dualists in fact, this belief in independence is essential.
The second reason why people are bad is for the sake of something they can get out of it. Usually the answer has to do with power, money or safety. None of these things are wrong, of coarse, but the means we apply to attain such "ends" can sometimes be evil. Evilness occurs when one pursues good things for the wrong reasons or uses the wrong ways to attain good things. Yes, wickedness is the pursuit of good things in the wrong way. One can be good for the sake of goodness, but to be bad for the sake of badness is impossible. So again, it becomes obvious that these to Powers that Dualists claim are independent are in fact not.
To put everything together let me say that for one to be bad one must have existence, intelligence, and a will. Yet, intelligence, existence and a will are not bad things but good things. Therefore, even the bad must be getting something from the good, proving again that these powers are not independent. Interestingly, even the devil is a fallen angel created by God. Dualism just doesn’t work.
3.Gnosticism
Gnosticism is a system of religious and philosophical doctrines that blends together Christianity with Greek and Oriental philosophies. Gnostics believe that the physical world is evil, and is the product of the fall. Because of its evilness, Gnostics feel that we should leave the world behind. There is much evil in the world, yes, I agree, and that evil is a product of the fall. But is the world evil, those in the world, or both? (This is just something to think about). In addition, how does one leave the world behind? There are many obvious problems with Gnosticism, which they are unable to clear up and it was for this reason the Early Church rejected the Gnostics as heretics.
4. Deism
Deism is the belief that God exists and created the world but thereafter assumed no control over it or in the lives of the people on it. Deists deny the Scriptural revelation and authority of God. Their belief is also in complete disagreement with the Scriptural writings. Some questions arise when dealing with Deism. If there is a God there must be a way he wants us to behave. Why would God not tell us? Why would God not care enough about us to be in our lives? There are so many other questions. In my opinion, deism boils down to the fact that people still want there to be a God; they just do not want to answer to him. This is a very childish belief to think that we can do whatever we want and suffer no consequences.
C. Biblical Creation
Even though I stated the belief in Part I, I will do so again. In Part I, I wrote,
"Creation (Biblical) claims that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was a formless void; and God created light. God separated the light from the darkness and called the light day and the darkness night. This completed the first day.

On the second day, God created a dome in the middle of the waters and let it separate the waters from other waters. Therefore, there were waters below the dome and waters above the dome.

On the third day, God gathered the waters into one place and the land into another. He called the land earth and the water seas. Then God commanded that the earth put forth vegetation.

On the forth day God made lights in the sky to separate day from night. God made two great lights. The brighter one was made to rule the day, and the other to rule the night.

On the fifth day, God made sea animals and he made birds to fly over the earth and across the sky. God created sea monsters and every living creature that moves, and of every kind that swim in the water. God told all to be fruitful and multiply.
On the sixth day, God made land creature of every kind. Every thing that moves and creeps on the ground he also made. Then God made a man and a woman in his image, and he gave them powers over all the fish of the sea and birds of the air, and animals of the land. God told all to be fruitful and multiply.
On the seventh day, God rested."
This is the belief of Creation and it comes from the account gives in Genesis 1. We will now go more in depth into not just Creation, but issues related to it.
D. THE CREATOR
Genesis 1:1 states that, "In the beginning God created the heaven and earth." This is the first verse of the Bible. Credit is also given to God, in the Nicene Creed and the Apostolic Creed, as being the Creator. In the Bible, first is spoken of the Creator, then of the Creation, then of man’s fall into sin, and finally of Jesus, the Son of God, who came to take us from our sin.
Creation is the foundation of all of God’s saving plans and is the beginning of the history of salvation.
E. THE IMPORTANCE OF BELIEF IN CREATION
Creation concerns the very foundations of human and Christian life. People are always asking themselves questions like, "Where do I come from, Where am I going, and what is my purpose? These questions are inseparable and creation answers everyone.
The questions of the origin of man and of the world have been the object of many scientific studies. Many of these studies have invited all to have an even greater admiration for the greatness of our Creator. It causes the Creationist to give thanks for all of God’s works, and for the understanding, He gives to those who study the world.
These studies also seek to answer and discover the meaning of the origin of life. They seek to discover whether the world came into existence by blind fate, chance or anonymous necessity, or by a transcendent, intelligent and Good Being called God. (Yet if the world does come from a Good God, why is there evil? This will be the subject of Part V).
I believe that human intelligence is capable of finding a response to those questions of mans origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty even if many things are obscured and disfigured by error. People can know with certainty that there is a Creator, and that the creation proves a God exists. According to Romans 1:19-20, " For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the Creation of the world, his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, has been seen and understood through the things that he has made.
Beyond this natural knowledge that everyman has a Creator, God revealed through the people of Israel the mystery of Creation. God chose the patriarchs to bring the Israelis out of Egypt and in choosing Israel he created and formed it. He reveals himself as the one to whom all the people of the earth belong. The revelation of creation is inseparable from the revelation and the forging of the covenant between God and his people. Creation is revealed as the first step toward God’s covenant with Abraham, which was the first and universal witness of God powerful love. Yes, the creation of the world is shown repeatedly through the creation of Israel and is expressed through the prophets, psalmists, and wisdom of the Jewish people.
Putting everything together, a belief in Creation is fundamentally important. Among all the texts about Creation, the first three chapters of the Bible occupy a unique place. They have been placed at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of Creation. These truths include mans origins and end, the worlds goodness and order, of the vocation of man, and finally of the drama of sin leading to the hope of salvation.
F. Creation is the Work of the Trinity
This next part would have been easier to leave out due to the confusion associated with the Trinity. Scripture tells of three different "persons" playing a part in Creation. These persons are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Those who doubt this need only look into the Sacred Writings to be corrected. Quoting Genesis 1:1 again, which tells," In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,' we are told three things: One, the eternal God gave a blessing to all those that exist outside of himself. Two, God alone is the Creator. And three, the totality of what exists depends on the one who gives it being. Genesis presents God as a Father (possibly as Father of Creation) so what would cause us to think of there being other Creator's if we believe that there is just one God? I must say that the mystery of the Trinity (the doctrine that states the union of three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, in one Godhead) will always be difficult for people to understand. Yet, I have come to accept that had God wanted me to understand everything that he understands, he would have certainly given me a brain as big as His. Sadly, he didn't, and I am forced to accept some things by faith.
Yet, if Creation is the work of the Trinity, why do we only hear of One instead of Three in the Book of Genesis? Hmmm. If just one created, why in Genesis 1:26 does God say, "Let US make man in our image." "Us," "OUR," What is God talking about? We find out later that "US" happens to be God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. In Genesis, we read of the Father, but in the Gospel of John, we read also of the Son's part in Creation. John 1:14 read, " In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him, not one thing was brought into being. What has come into being in Him was life and this life was the light of all of the people..." Who was the Word who is God, with God, and took part in all of Creation? If you read on in John 1, you will see that this Word is Jesus Christ. Historically, Jesus was born around 4 B.C. Yet, the Christian knows that Jesus was with God the Father since the beginning of time. For anyone confused of this talk of "Word", Paul in his letter to the Colossians is very clear. "For in Him all things on heaven and earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominion, or rulers or powers-all things have been created through Him and for Him. He Himself is before all things and in him, all things are held together. (Colossians 1:16-17).
We have heard of the Father's involvement in Creation, and have looked at some verses that bring the Son into the picture also. But what of the Spirit? The Old Testament suggests the creative action of Son and Spirit, as being inseparable with the Father. Psalm 33 speaks of the Breath of God, which is caused by the Spirit's actions. Many translations also refer to this Breath of God, and to the Holy Spirit, in the account of Creation given in Genesis.
That Creation is the work of the Trinity is a fact affirmed repeatedly by the Church's statements of faith. St. Iraneus put it well. "Three exist, but one God, he is the Father God; the Creator, the Author and Giver of order. He made all things by Himself, that is by His Word, and by His Wisdom; the Son and Spirit who so to speak are his hands."
G. THE PURPOSE OF CREATION
Scripture teaches that the world was created for the glory of God. St. Bonaventure believed that God created all things "not to increase His glory but to show it forth and to communicate it." St. Thomas Aquinas believed that God created out of love. Aquinas wrote " Creatures came into existence when the key of Love opened His hand." Moreover, St. Paul in his letter to the Ephesians wrote that God "destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the Good pleasures of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace... (Ephesians 1:5-6). St. Iraneus also asked himself what the purpose of Creation was. He came to the conclusion that the "Glory of God is man's fully alive; moreover man's life is the vision of God; if God's revelation through Creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on Earth, how much more will the Word's manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God." That is a deep quote. I ask that you read it a few times. From the Scripture and from the Saints we read that God created the world to show his glory, demonstrate his love, and so that we can be Son's of Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:28 sum it up best. Paul, the author writes, "When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the one who puts all things in Subjection." Yes, clearly from a Scriptural viewpoint, God created the world for the Glory of God.
1. God Creates by Wisdom and Love
I could be wrong but I believe that in literary circles, the term "personification" is given to describe how human attributes are given to non-living objects. If I am right in my understanding of literary devices, none of which I seem to incorporate into my own writings, then I believe that King Solomon uses personification in his popular Book of Wisdom. Wisdom 9:9 states, "With you is Wisdom, she also knows your works and was present when you made the world; she understands what is pleasing in your sight and what is right according to your commandments." Solomon knew that the world was created according to God's wisdom. He knew that it was not the process of necessity, or blind fate, or even chance. Instead, it came from God's will. It seems likely that God wanted to make His creatures share in his being, wisdom, and goodness. The Psalmist David makes mention of the Wisdom of God in Psalm 104; "O Lord, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all, the earth is full of your creatures." (Psalm 104:24). The Apostle John talks of God's love in Creation. "You are worthy our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things and by your will they existed and were created." (Revelation 4:11).
I find it interesting that God would create the world out of love and wisdom. If he had enough love and if love was part of the reason, he created us then I find the Deist belief not a reasonable one. If he created us, to love us, then he will not, or has not, "packed his bags and left the building" like Elvis. No, God is with us all of the time!
2. God Creates Out of Nothing
When dealing with Creation it is important to realize two things: One, God needs no pre-existent things of any sort to help him in order to create. Two, Creation is not a necessity that God was forced into putting together. Commenting on the first point St. Theophilus said, "If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary about that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows His power by starting from nothing to make all that he wants."
The Scripture also witness to the "Creation out of nothing" concept. In the Book of Maccabees, seven brothers are arrested, tortured, and finally executed for refusing to break one of God's commandments. Before seeing her son's executed by an enemy ruler, the mother encouraged her sons by saying, " I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who sent you the elements within each of you. The Creator of the world who shaped the beginning of humankind devised the origin of all things will in his mercy give life back to you again... " She goes on to say, " My Son, I beg you to look at the heaven and the earth and see that everything that is in them and recognize that God did not make them out of all things that existed. And in the same way the human race came into being. Do not fear...(2 Maccabees 7:22-24, 28).
Since God can create out of nothing he can also through the Holy Spirit give spiritual life to the sinner by creating a pure heart in them (Psalm 51:12), and bodily life to the dead through the Resurrection. God gives life to the dead and "calls into existence that things that do not exist." (Romans 4:17). Since God was able to make light shine into darkness by his Word, he can give the light of faith to those who previously did not know Him. (2 Corinthians 4:6).
3. God Creates A Good and Ordered World
Because God created through his Wisdom, his creation is ordered. The second part of verse 20 in Chapter 11 of the Book of Wisdom states, " But you have arranged all things by measure and number and weight." The universe (which was created by the Eternal Word who is the image of the Invisible God) is destined for man and is addressed to man, who is the created image of God, and who is called to a personal relationship with God. Together Genesis 1:26 and Colossians 1:15 state what I have just written.
Also, our human understanding can comprehend what God tells us by means of His creation, though not without great efforts and only through a spirit of humility and respect before the Creator and His work. Job went through this process in the last three chapters of the Book bearing his name.
Creation came forth from God's goodness, among other things. Because of this it would follow that what God created must be good. Genesis 1:31, "God saw everything that he had made, and indeed it was very good." Creation was not just a gift to man, but it was a very good gift, and it had order. Scientific studies also testify to the universe's order.
4. God Transcends Creation and Is Present to It
According to Psalm 8:2, which says, "You have set your glory above the heavens. Out of the mouths of babes and infants you have founded a bulk work because of your foes, to silence the enemy and avenger", and Sirach 43:28, "For he is greater than all of his works," it becomes obvious that God is infinitely greater than everything else. Psalm 145:3 say that "God's greatness is unreachable." Since God is a free and sovereign Creator, and is the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures’ inmost being. (Acts 17:28). St. Augustine also had this knowledge when he wrote, '' God is higher than my highest and more inward then my innermost self."
5. God Upholds and Sustains Creation
God did not create the world just to run away after the Creation was complete. God not only gives being and existence but also at every moment he upholds and sustains them in being. He enables living beings to act and bring them toward their end. To quote the Book of Wisdom yet again, the following quote reaffirms that God does uphold and sustain creation. "For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured if you had not willed it, or how would anything not called forth by you have preserved? (Wisdom 11:24-26)
I. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN
1. Divine Providence
The Bible is clear that God is the Sovereign Master of his plan. To carry out his plan though, God seeks the cooperation of his creatures. This is by no means a sign of weakness, but rather it is a token of his almighty greatness and goodness. God grants his Creation not only existence but also the ability to help others and cooperate in the accomplishment of God's plan.
To humans, God even gives the power of sharing in His plan by entrusting us with the responsibility of caring for the earth and having dominion over it. For anyone to think that humans and other creatures are equal are simply mistaken.
Genesis 1:26-28 states, "…and let them (humans) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over all the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every other creeping thing that creeps on the earth." It is clear that God enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete this work of creation, to improve and perfect the harmony for their own good and for the good of their neighbors. Humans are often unconscious collaborators of God’s will. Despite our sometimes being unconscious helpers we become God’s fellow workers and coworkers for the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 3:2, and Colossians 4:11).
That God is at work in all of the actions of his creatures is inseparable from the belief that God is the Creator. Philippians 2:13 states, "For it is God who is at work in you enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." In other words, God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes. Far from diminishing to creatures’ dignity, this truth enhances it. We were drawn from nothingness by God’s power, goodness and wisdom. Cut off from the Creator we can do nothing, for without the Creator the Creation vanishes. Without the help of God’s grace, can we humans still attain out ultimate end? According to the Scriptural writings, this is impossible.
J. Respect for Creation
Animals, plants and other beings, are by nature destined for the common good of the past present and future. (Genesis 1:28-31). Use of mineral, vegetable, or animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for Creation.
Animals are God’s creation. He surrounds them with his providential care. By there mere existence, they bless God and give him glory. (Daniel 3:77-81). Thus, we owe them kindness and certainly should remember how St. Francis of Assisi took care of them.
God entrusted animals to the care of man. He gave man permission to use animals for food. It is also acceptable for animals to be domesticated, in order to help man in his work or leisure. Medical and scientific experiments on animals are also acceptable so long as it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to the care or saving of human lives.
Of coarse it is against all that is right for animals to die or suffer needlessly. It is also, against what is right to spend great amounts of money on them, when as a priority the money should go to the relief of some human misery. It is good to love animals, but one should not forget also the proper affection shown to humans.
A good thing to remember is this: What God creates we need to care for.
K. A Summary
I will now state again the main points of the Creationist belief.
-By creating the world and man, God gave the first and universal witness to His almighty love and goodness
-Although the Creation may seem to be attributed to the Father, it is actually the Father, Son, and Spirit who form the Godhead that are responsible for Creation
-God created the world with no help; he also created it freely and directly
-No creature has the power necessary to create and give being to that which before did not possess it
-God has created the world to show forth his glory and communicate it, and God has created so that his creation can share in his beauty, goodness and truth
-God not only created the world but keeps it in existence by His Son and Spirit
-God guides all of his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end, and Christ calls us to trust the Heavenly Father
-Divine Providence can work through the actions of God’s creation, especially humans who God has given the ability to cooperate freely with His plans
-God gave man dominion over minerals, vegetables and animal resources but this should not be separated from respect for moral obligations, especially those toward generations to come
-Because animals are entrusted to man’s stewardship, we are to show kindness to them; and animals may be used to serve the just satisfaction of man’s needs
L. Conclusion
I realize this has been more of a theological paper than a scientific one. This is because; Biblical Creationists do not get their beliefs from a scientific experiment. No, Biblical Creationists get their beliefs from the Bible, and scientific experiments confirm their beliefs.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nator, posted 07-31-2003 8:08 PM The General has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Wounded King, posted 08-01-2003 9:38 AM The General has not yet responded
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 08-01-2003 2:53 PM The General has not yet responded
 Message 6 by John, posted 08-04-2003 11:31 AM The General has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 586 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 2 of 65 (48255)
07-31-2003 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
07-31-2003 3:26 AM


Read the forum guidelines.

You are in violation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The General, posted 07-31-2003 3:26 AM The General has not yet responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 3 of 65 (48301)
08-01-2003 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
07-31-2003 3:26 AM


could you give us a brief precis of the scientific evidence confirming any of those main points of belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The General, posted 07-31-2003 3:26 AM The General has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 65 (48338)
08-01-2003 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
07-31-2003 3:26 AM


I don't understand how you could hope to provide a biblical alternative to natural selection, given that natural selection is not a theory or a philosophy, but a principle derived from observation.

That is to say, scientists talk about natural selection not because they're atheists or they like the theory, but because natural selection is what happens. The fit survive to a greater degree than the non-fit.

Why would you make up a fiction to replace the facts? It's like trying to come up with a biblical alternative to saying "the sky is blue". It's exactly the kind of biblical substitution for intellect that turned me off to Christianity in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The General, posted 07-31-2003 3:26 AM The General has not yet responded

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 65 (48599)
08-04-2003 11:28 AM


Oh ... My ... G-

Paragraphs! Paragraphs with blank lines separating them! PLEASE!

------------------

quote:
All the boys think she's a spy

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 65 (48601)
08-04-2003 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
07-31-2003 3:26 AM


The general hasn't posted since... when?

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www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The General, posted 07-31-2003 3:26 AM The General has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Asgara, posted 08-04-2003 1:47 PM John has responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 7 of 65 (48626)
08-04-2003 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by John
08-04-2003 11:31 AM


Has anybody else recieved e-mail from the General offering a twice-monthly EvC article? I wonder if the General wants to debate or if he is only interested in expanding his contact list.

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by John, posted 08-04-2003 11:31 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-04-2003 5:47 PM Asgara has not yet responded
 Message 9 by MrHambre, posted 08-04-2003 5:52 PM Asgara has not yet responded
 Message 13 by John, posted 08-05-2003 10:04 AM Asgara has not yet responded

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 65 (48662)
08-04-2003 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Asgara
08-04-2003 1:47 PM


I received that! And I've basically only just EvC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Asgara, posted 08-04-2003 1:47 PM Asgara has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 9 of 65 (48663)
08-04-2003 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Asgara
08-04-2003 1:47 PM


I haven't received that! And say what you want about the Generalíssimo, he sure made me rethink my devotion to pantheism.

------------------
En la tierra de ciegos, el tuerco es el Rey.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Asgara, posted 08-04-2003 1:47 PM Asgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by The General, posted 08-05-2003 2:33 AM MrHambre has not yet responded

  
The General
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 65 (48717)
08-05-2003 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by MrHambre
08-04-2003 5:52 PM


Response to Biblical Creationism
One individual speculated that I may not want to debate, but simply expand my contact list. From this article I have received very little debate.
The first responder informed me that I was in violation of the rules, and that perhaps I should read them again. In fact I did, and I found that I had violated no rules by posting this piece.
The next individual attempted to start a debate by asking for evidence, however since I have not been on in several day I have not been able to respond. But this is something I would like to explore. Yet, due to the length of the article I would ask that the responder would ask very specific questions.
Responder four, in what I found a rather unusual tone, seemed to dismiss the Creationists theory because there are religious elements to it. He made reference to Natural Selection, but I fear he may not be to educated as to what Natural Selection is. This has motivated me to post an article on Natural Selection. THis will come in the next few days.
Responder five made a suggestion as to how my formatting may be more easy to read. Responder six, with nothing to contribute, simply asked when the last time I posted was.
The last three readers had small notes not quite relating to the article, but also not offensive.
If there is a debate to be had, I am wondering where it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by MrHambre, posted 08-04-2003 5:52 PM MrHambre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 08-05-2003 3:07 AM The General has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Wounded King, posted 08-05-2003 9:31 AM The General has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Admin, posted 08-05-2003 10:30 AM The General has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 65 (48722)
08-05-2003 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by The General
08-05-2003 2:33 AM


Re: Response to Biblical Creationism
Responder four, in what I found a rather unusual tone, seemed to dismiss the Creationists theory because there are religious elements to it.

Not so. I simply asked why it's better to replace something that is observed and confirmed with something that has not been. You don't seem to have a response to that, yet.

Sorry if you found my tone "unusual". It had been my hope to come off not as bellicose but inquisitive. I don't understand how the thrust of your argument appears to be a refutation of natural selection given that this is a plainly observed phenomenon.

He made reference to Natural Selection, but I fear he may not be to educated as to what Natural Selection is.

To the contrary.

Natural selection is an observed principle of populations; that is, those individuals in a population who possess traits most suited to their environment persist to a statistically greater degree than those individuals that do not. As a result they tend to leave more offspring than those who are "selected against."

There's nothing theoretical about this because it's not a theory. It's an observation. It happens. You can watch it, if you want.

If you feel this is in error then I challenge you to cite a source and prove me wrong.

If there is a debate to be had, I am wondering where it is.

It happens when you respond intelligently to rebuttals to your argument. We're still waiting for that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by The General, posted 08-05-2003 2:33 AM The General has not yet responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 12 of 65 (48768)
08-05-2003 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by The General
08-05-2003 2:33 AM


I'm not fussy General, you pick the one or two beliefs from your summary which you consider are best substantiated by scientific evidence and tell us what that evidence is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by The General, posted 08-05-2003 2:33 AM The General has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 65 (48771)
08-05-2003 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Asgara
08-04-2003 1:47 PM


I didn't get that, but given the quality of the Gen's arguments to date, I'm not all that interested. The truth is that we need a creationist on site. We've mostly lost our opposition. The Gen could step in and take over-- I mean, if he'd respond to criticisms of his 'work.'

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Asgara, posted 08-04-2003 1:47 PM Asgara has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12657
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 14 of 65 (48779)
08-05-2003 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by The General
08-05-2003 2:33 AM


Re: Response to Biblical Creationism
Hi, General!

The General writes:

The first responder informed me that I was in violation of the rules, and that perhaps I should read them again. In fact I did, and I found that I had violated no rules by posting this piece.

I agree, you violated none of the Forum Guidelines. I believe Schraf probably had rule 2 in mind, the one about supporting assertions, but one isn't required to support assertions until they've been challenged. After all, it often isn't possible to anticipate which points will be found controversial. Perhaps I'll edit the guidelines and make that clear.

Yet, due to the length of the article I would ask that the responder would ask very specific questions.

About the "length of the article", long time denizens here are well aware that the moderators encourage members to keep posts focused. In particular, please do not simply cut-n-paste long articles into message boxes. Introduce your point, then provide a link to the longer article.

This has motivated me to post an article on Natural Selection. This will come in the next few days.

If your article is long and unformatted I will delete it. If your article is not already available on the net and you would like to post it here at EvC Forum then simply email it to me at Admin and I will post it at the site and provide you the URL. It must be a properly formatted text file, or a properly formatted HTML file. I'm getting out of the copy edit business.

------------------

--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by The General, posted 08-05-2003 2:33 AM The General has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by The General, posted 08-08-2003 2:40 AM Admin has not yet responded

  
The General
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 65 (49315)
08-08-2003 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Admin
08-05-2003 10:30 AM


Re: Response to Biblical Creationism
Responder four; I apologize since I misunderstood your tone. You have given your definition of natural selection, yet I feel it is incomplete.
Here is an excerpt from my paper on Natural Selection;
"Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection should be divided into three related propositions. This first point is that new species have appeared during the long coarse of the earth’s history by a natural process that he called “descent with modification.” The second point is that this evolutionary process can be extended to account for all the diversity of life. This is because all living things descended from a very small number of common ancestors, or even one single microscopic ancestor. (Or at least this is what Darwin taught). Point three is this, and this is what is most distinctive to Darwinism: that this vast process was guided by natural selection (or survival of the fittest) and that natural selection is so effective a guiding force that it can accomplish biological creations, that in the previous times people had though to give credit to the hand of a creator."
Do you disagree with this definition?
As far as my not responding, I am afraid I just have not been overly impressed with the critics just yet (message 2,5-9), and even if I were I still would not be able to respond instantly.

Responder 12; This paper on Biblical Creationism relies heavily on the Bible. It is not a scientific paper but a religios one. I also cannot give scientific evidence to show you that the Creator I believe in, actually exists. Very briefly some reasons I believe the Biblical account are;
-answers to how life developed (The Biblical account tells me that the world was not formed by a bacteria cell, which slowly after millions of years evolved, and kept on evolving so that everything we have today is a descendant of that cell. Rather it tells me that God created all things, and all kinds)
-I believe young earth theorists help give the Bible more credibility because a literal account of Genesis and the Bible puts the world at less than 10,000 years old
-I believe the Bible (and so Creation) answers our questions about purpose, origin and destiny
I dont know if this is exactly what you are looking for, but I hope it helps you understand my viewpoint better. If I am way off in answering your question, then if you could be even more detailed I would appreciate it.

GENERAL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Admin, posted 08-05-2003 10:30 AM Admin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Wounded King, posted 08-08-2003 6:06 AM The General has not yet responded
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 08-08-2003 2:59 PM The General has not yet responded

  
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