cambrian death cause

Look again, I'd say they were pretty well covered.

this may be true. it may not be true. but we're not dealing with two animals, we're dealing with ALL of them. explain to me how the weakened, retarded, runty rhinocerous of the pack didn't die? there's should be SOME examples to suggest that it was there at the time, even if none of them died. you know, like, footprints. something. how did the frail insects, susceptable to mass climactic change, survive, but the not the robust hardy trilobite? and if it were merely a size issue, where did our small animals today come from?This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-09-2004 05:50 AM

maybe i'm reading my bible differently, but it says that after they got kicked out, have cain and abel, cain kills abel, and then goes to nod and gets someone pregnant.it certainly sounds like there was someone else outside the garden. if not, where did cain's wife come from? was she a child of adam and eve that just got neglected to be mentioned with all the hub-bub of four people in the world, and managed to sneak out to nod before anyone noticed what happened? like what, exactly?certainly none of these questions:

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What critters and things died off during each of the Cambrian Extinctions?
Why did no flowering plants die during the whole period?
Why did no dinosaurs die during the whole period?
Why did no men die during the whole period?
Why did no grasses die during the whole period?
Why did no birds die during the whole period?
Why did no mammals die during the whole period?
Why did no reptiles die during the whole period?

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i think we're reading a different bible. mine says this:

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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

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which means that he's not immortal originally. the serpent was right, wasn't he? genesis chapter what? yeah, unless you know the first thing about the hebrew numerical practice of ascribing large ages to significant people. mammals and birds do not continue to grow until they die like reptiles, insects, and amphibians. and we know what baby dinosaurs looked like, btw. they don't start off that small, having held a few tarbosaur eggs myself.also, big dragonflies require a different atmosphere.

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Where would such a deadly effect come from?

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The Invisible Flatulent Pink Unicorn (henceforth IFPU) looked down on the world that she had made with a swoosh of her tail and was disappointed with some of the animals and plants she had made. Trilobites were ugly in Her eyes, so she struck them down with a stomp of her foot. Spiny worms were equally disgusting, they got the hoof as well. She started destroying the reptiles, starting with the biggest, until a man came to her. He said "Oh Great Unicorn, spare the reptiles so that I might make great cowboy boots out of their hide." And so the IFPU saved the rest of the reptiles. This is why we have alligator suitcases and rattlesnake cowboy boots today, because of the IFPU.Guess what, my story has as much evidence as your story. Therefore I am claiming that if the creation story and explanation you describe should be taught in science high school classes, so should mine. After all, with respect to evidenciary support they are equal.

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To get a good answer there, it seems we need some information on the conditions that were present in a world before the flood.

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There is no evidence supporting a world wide flood. Therefore, there is no such thing as "conditions before the flood".

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Why, I sometimes wondered, did God need Eden as a place to live for Adam and Eve?

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There is no scientific evidence for the Garden of Eden even existing.

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Was most of the world a sort of swamp full of cambrian type thingies? We really don't know!

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We have a pretty good idea. We arrived at this information through the fossil record. Again, it is evidence that lead science to the conclusion. You seem to be skipping that part.

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Apparently many feel there was no rain, but a watering or kind of daily dew, or mist.

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And they "feel" this way because of their religious convictions, not evidence found in nature.

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What if most or all of the men, mammals, birds, and dinos were in or near Eden at this early period? That alone would explain a lot!

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What if they were all on an intergalactic spaceship? This explanation is about as usefull as yours and supported by the same amount of evidence, that is no evidence whatsoever.

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Why didn't men die in this period?

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Because there were no men, or women, until about 100,000 years ago. The Cambrian occured millions of years ago.

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Still, in men's case, they lived on to close to a thousand years even after that, in such a near perfect world.

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Again, evidence of this please.

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I wouldn't be at all surprised that the reason so many creatures got so big, was they also lived greater lifespans than today. So they had time to grow big! (8 foot beavers, 1 foot dragonflys, huge dinos, etc)

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It takes more than just a long life span to grow bigger. There are also morphological changes that have to occur to cope with many aspects of being "big". If there were an 8 foot beaver it probably wouldn't be able to move with the way it's body is set up, much less swim. Humans, for example, encounter serious health effects when they go past 7 feet tall. Sorry, wild conjecture just isn't working for you. You need to start with actual evidence and then move towards a conclusion.

Actually, not one of them was covered.So let's try to make this simple for you.Are you saying that the Cambrian die off is the Flood? If so, I believe that almost every biologist, geologist and evolutionist would agree that the Cambrian die off appears to be a world-wide water event.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It has more evidence! Just yesterday evening, I looked for the IFPU, and, as She's invisible, I didn't see Her! That PROOVES She's real! Hallelujah!

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this may be true. it may not be true. but we're not dealing with two animals, we're dealing with ALL of them. explain to me how the weakened, retarded, runty rhinocerous of the pack didn't die?

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If as I speculated at the time all, or most animals, people etc. were in or near Eden, I don't think there were too many retards. Lets try to explain in in a different light, see if this helps. Lets say, then that the split happens, and now things here in the physical world began to die. With the pre flood conditions, climate, diet, etc, and being so close to the time we were made with perfect bodies, we had a 900 year plus lifespan. Animals too, I think had longer spans, despite death now being inevitable. Now we look across the spectrum of life, in all it's original fullness, and completion, little or nothing yet being even extinct! All creatures then now have a lifespan. Some more than others, of course, as now, even, a blackfly lives less long than a caterpillar! (I think) So all these low life forms, compared to man who is the highest, and was told to rule over all. Not only in relation to man, but in relation to lifespans, perhaps! So, even if we overlook the possible earth effects of the split, cosmically speaking, we simply look at it as little thingies dying and getting fossilized over time (how much time? maybe years?). Wouldn't this tend to give us a pattern of fossils! Yes, without men, and other Eden creatures, even Eden plants! What was outside of Eden? Well, we can't say for sure. It would seem from all the shallow water type creatures we find, there was a lot of wetlands? At least moistlands? ha. Now, if only we knew exactly where the real Eden was, and dug way down, maybe we'd find some better range of fossils!!!

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it certainly sounds like there was someone else outside the garden..

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Of course, afterwards, ahen they got kicked out of the garden, they spread out! But how far was Nod? When evos admit how little of the earth we dug up looking for fossils, I think a fraction of a percent, or something, is it any wonder they missed the motherlode? Remember also, that in a pre flood world where trillions of creatures died, and were fossilized (in this scenario)by the time 1000 years went by (in one man's life alone), the cambrian layer, depending on the conditions in the pre flood world may have been a deep buried layer! Now can you just imagine people getting things so backward, as to think the poor critters must have evolved from each other into men!!!?

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There is no evidence supporting a world wide flood. Therefore, there is no such thing as "conditions before the flood"

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Hard to discuss creation with a premise like that! Maybe you should switch this to 'evo unproven theories only discussion forum?'

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There is no scientific evidence for the Garden of Eden even existing.

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So, lets see, you can't detect the spirit world in the slightest, and now you admit science has no clue even of Eden! Don't worry, there are many good things we are able to learn with our scientific efforts, so don't feel too bad at the severe limitations.

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And they "feel" this way because of their religious convictions, not evidence found in nature

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Yes, it rains now, so I guess it always must have? Sorry, that just don't do it.

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This explanation is about as usefull as yours and supported by the same amount of evidence, that is no evidence whatsoever

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The creation record tells us He put men, and the garden here. Population stats, bear this out, taking into consideration death rates, war, etc. , I believe, since the flood, at least. Conversely if men were here as long as evos say, creation sites tell us we would be up to our ears in human fossils, and I also think, standing room only on planet earth-type of population.

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Because there were no men, or women, until about 100,000 years ago

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That men lived 1000 years is so hard to believe, but it seems easy to swallow 100,000, and millions, and billions of years for evos!

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It takes more than just a long life span to grow bigger. There are also morphological changes that have to occur to cope with many aspects of being "big".

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OK, so I can get along with some morphing as well as longer lifespans, as well as lots to eat. Something sure sounds like it was different in the pre flood world!

There is still an open question at Message 21.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Hard to discuss creation with a premise like that! Maybe you should switch this to 'evo unproven theories only discussion forum?'

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It's hard to judge the validity of a theory when you can just make things up. I swear, if God told Noah to build a spacecraft to avoid a cataclysmic meteor shower you would be looking for a spaceport on Mars.Secondly, no theory in science is ever proven 100%. Don't worry, your lack of experience within the sciences might have led you to believe the creationist propoganda. Theories are tested over and over (as evolution has been) in a continuing effort to show that they are wrong. In science, you can only prove that something is false but never prove that something is true. Unfortunately for you, a global flood has been proven wrong.

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So, lets see, you can't detect the spirit world in the slightest, and now you admit science has no clue even of Eden!

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And christianity is so limited that its practitioners can not reach enlightenment like Buddha. Christianity is so limited it is unable to detect reincarnated ancestors. Christianity is so limited it is unable to find animal spirits to guide their warriors. Please, science only throws out one more god and one more religious creation story than "creation science" does.

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Yes, it rains now, so I guess it always must have? Sorry, that just don't do it.

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Let's think about this for a moment. Throughout the geologic record we see signs of riverbeds that cut into rock. If it doesn't rain, where does that water come from? At somepoint all of it would drain out to the lowest elevation. Once it reaches the lowest elevation there is no physical force other than hot magma to squirt it back up to higher elevations. Yes, it has always rained as long as their was water flowing on Earth. Do you have evidence otherwise? Again, evidence first then conclusion.

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The creation record tells us He put men, and the garden here. Population stats, bear this out, taking into consideration death rates, war, etc. , I believe, since the flood, at least.

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So you have a census for the entire history of the last 4,000 years for every culture and every country? Quite amazing, you might let National Geographic know. Of course, this may be a rehash of the same sh!t that ICR keeps putting out, using current death and birth rates to calculate past population sizes. Using the same calculations we should be miles deep in E. coli since they double in population every 20 minutes.

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creation sites tell us we would be up to our ears in human fossils, and I also think, standing room only on planet earth-type of population.

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That's what you get for listening to creationist sites, misinformation. Let's use an example, the passenger pigeon. At one time in North America they numbered in the billions. In fact, the first european settlers recorded flocks so large they took most of the day to pass overhead. Guess how many passenger pigeon fossils there are today? None. Now take humans, whose population size has always been smaller than passenger pigeons. Why should we expect to find billions of human fossils? I am sorry, but you need to look at science articles and findings that haven't been corrupted by a political and religious agenda.

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That men lived 1000 years is so hard to believe, but it seems easy to swallow 100,000, and millions, and billions of years for evos!

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And that is what I have to take it on, your belief. Again (and again) evidence before conclusion. You claim that people used to live 1,000 years, it is up to you to prove it. Same as the "no rain in the past", that is also up to you to prove, not for me to disprove. It is poor logic to come up with ad hoc explanations and expect people to prove them wrong when you didn't prove they were correct to begin with. What if I claimed that humans only lived 10 years and used to grow faster in the past. There, prove me wrong. Creationists claim that radioisotope decay and the speed of light were different in the past (a much younger earth) so why not a shorter lifespan? Too bad real science isn't done in such a fashion, I could be the most prolific scientist in the world.

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OK, so I can get along with some morphing as well as longer lifespans, as well as lots to eat. Something sure sounds like it was different in the pre flood world!

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Try macroevolution, not morphing. We are talking about changes in morphology within one generation that have never been observed. Again, you propose things that are not observed and expect me and others to swallow it whole on your say so. You have to do better than this.

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And that is what I have to take it on, your belief.

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Interpretation of the evidence, I think we mean here. Your interpretation based on science, or mine.

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recorded flocks so large they took most of the day to pass overhead. Guess how many passenger pigeon fossils there are today? None ......Why should we expect to find billions of human fossils?

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So then, if we got 6 billion people now, in 3000 years or whatever since the flood, then in 100,000 years, even, would we not have many more? If we get 6 billion per 3000 years in 100 thousand we would have about 33 and a third billion. Just a very quick number, of course, but it gives us an idea of how many people we don't have for so great a time. Then, if your arguement is humans don't get fossized easy, why are some wanting them to be in the cambrian layer?

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Using the same calculations we should be miles deep in E. coli since they double in population every 20 minutes.

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Do you have good scientific reason to assume the birth rate was radically different? Hopefully you are not just giving us 'misinformation', and wild opinion here!

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Throughout the geologic record we see signs of riverbeds that cut into rock. If it doesn't rain, where does that water come from?

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Ok valid point. Now, is this evidence of water cutting certainly from a river in all cases? Do we know it could not have been some flood water somehow? Then, we need to look at the pre flood world, was there rivers? YES, there was! God even names several that were near Eden! So where did they get water? Did they get any from the fountains of the deep? Was the mist sufficient to feed rivers? Why not?!

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Yes, it has always rained as long as their was water flowing on Earth. Do you have evidence otherwise? Again, evidence first then conclusion.

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So now who is spouting conclusions here? Seems you are!

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Please, science only throws out one more god and one more religious creation story than "creation science" does.

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Not at all. The bible is choc full of supernatural and miracles, etc. It explains most of what we see in various religions, does not always throw it out! It doesn't chase beliefs out of the room, it just turns on the light so we can see where things really are. But one religion it does throw out on it's rear, is evolution. Not science, the religion, that is so called science.

I say it is a result of God's creation several thousand years ago. In this thread I explore the possibility that the cambrian creatures died pre flood. That there was a lot of water involved is not I don't think a major issue. Tell me how much you need, and I'll see if I can come up with some for you!

So you are saying that the Cambrian layers are pre-flood?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, in this thread, that is exactly what I am trying to throw out for critisism. As far as "saying" it was pre flood, that is a bit premature. Sure looks good so far, though!