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Author Topic:   Let's face it...
joz
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 108 (602)
12-11-2001 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by redstang281
12-11-2001 3:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
"Im sorry but arguing that an unborn child has already sinned and deserves to be born with aids isnt terribly convincing as evidence of an omnibenevolent big fella...."

The world is no longer perfect. That is because of man, not because of God.

"I hope you asked Santa for some thicker skin....."

I probably should ask Santa, because evolution won't help. Sorry, low blow I know Just a joke.


LOL I quite agree it would only possibly benefit your very distant descendants...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 3:24 PM redstang281 has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3389 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 17 of 108 (611)
12-11-2001 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by redstang281
12-11-2001 8:18 AM


"Sex was ment to be an emotionally attaching event designed to bond two people together (a man and a woman.) However when people use it just to forfill a lustfull desire it loosing it's meaning until the whole point of a relationship looses it's meaning."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... Wrong way, Love is meant to be an emotional way of attaching people SO they have sex.

"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex."

HAHAHAHAHAHA.....Nope, God created all life in 6 days. This meant Adam (Eve?) had every known sexually transmitted parasite known to man, & God gave it to them!!!! LOL

Why does the faithful husband get STDs off of his flirty wife then? Whats he done now to anger Him? Just can't do anything right, can we!!

"Im sorry but arguing that an unborn child has already sinned and deserves to be born with aids isnt terribly convincing as evidence of an omnibenevolent big fella...."

"The world is no longer perfect. That is because of man, not because of God."

Whaaaaaaaaaat!!! But didn't God create the world & MAN??? If God didn't want to have to create the (very well designed) AIDS virus by way of punishing the innocent, then maybe he should have put more thought into us. He didn't HAVE to make some people (turn to) evil. But you God Bods can't have it both ways. He created us imperfectly or he didn't.

I'll probably be the only person that thanks you for "that STD gift"

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 8:18 AM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 10:27 PM mark24 has responded

    
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 108 (614)
12-11-2001 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mark24
12-11-2001 5:19 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"Sex was meant to be an emotionally attaching event designed to bond two people together (a man and a woman.) However when people use it just to forfill a lustfull desire it loosing it's meaning until the whole point of a relationship looses it's meaning."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... Wrong way, Love is meant to be an emotional way of attaching people SO they have sex.

"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex."

HAHAHAHAHAHA.....Nope, God created all life in 6 days. This meant Adam (Eve?) had every known sexually transmitted parasite known to man, & God gave it to them!!!! LOL

Why does the faithful husband get STDs off of his flirty wife then? Whats he done now to anger Him? Just can't do anything right, can we!!

"Im sorry but arguing that an unborn child has already sinned and deserves to be born with aids isnt terribly convincing as evidence of an omnibenevolent big fella...."

"The world is no longer perfect. That is because of man, not because of God."

Whaaaaaaaaaat!!! But didn't God create the world & MAN??? If God didn't want to have to create the (very well designed) AIDS virus by way of punishing the innocent, then maybe he should have put more thought into us. He didn't HAVE to make some people (turn to) evil. But you God Bods can't have it both ways. He created us imperfectly or he didn't.

I'll probably be the only person that thanks you for "that STD gift"


I'm sorry but I consider God more of an authority than yourself. God said sex is his gift to a married couple. For those who choose to abuse this gift there is std's. Before the fall of man there was no sin (or degeneration.) Animals didn't kill each other for food, there were no thorn bushes, and most likely no std's. This was something the bible says came about after man's sin. If you consider the fact that two people who withdraw from sexual attivity until marriage and then are faithful to one another it becomes apparent that my theory is true. As for a husband who gets aids from a cheating wife, maybe God is paying him back for some other sin he commited earlier. I believe it is intirely possible that we are not always punished emmidiatly after we sin. But that being said still I must erge you to understand this basic fundamentalist christian understanding that we are all sinners!! Even when we are born. The sin that Adam commited is carried down through all his generations. Therefor no one is innocent.

God did not create evil. Even though God has control over everything, God did not make lucifer's rebellion against him. It does not seem logical but that's because we can't understand it. God actions are not limited to our comprehension. A contradiction to us is comprehension to him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 12-11-2001 5:19 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:32 AM redstang281 has responded
 Message 78 by nator, posted 12-18-2001 1:41 AM redstang281 has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3389 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 19 of 108 (615)
12-12-2001 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by redstang281
12-11-2001 10:27 PM


But unborn children never fell. They are blameless. God gave STDs to people who DIDN'T abuse his gifts.

Didn't Jesus die for our sins? Seems he may as well put his feet up & enjoyed a day with a sixpack (for OUR sins, of course), for all the good it did. What was the point? If God is STILL insistent on punishing innocents. We may as well ALL give up & go home if we've been pre-judged in this malicious way.

"If you consider the fact that two people who withdraw from sexual attivity until marriage and then are faithful to one another it becomes apparent that my theory is true."

What ARE you talking about? Nothing would change on planet Earth if they shagged themselves stupid years before they got married (if they bothered at all).

Whether Adam sinned or not is irrelevent. I AM NOT A SINNER. How many Christians would accept life imprisonment on this basis? For being guilty of someone elses crime. NOT YOU, THATS FOR SURE!!

Utter rubbish. Please don't insult me saying I don't understand. Whats to misinterpret?

I'm guilty of someone elses crime, Jesus died for my sin (actually someone elses), & I'm STILL TO BLAME!!!

Sheesh....God sure is hard to please....

So whats the point in Final Judgement if were ALL guilty anyway. Seems to me I may as well go & murder someone, because I'm already being blamed (I wonder if someone else gets the blame for that murder, maybe thats how it works).

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-12-2001]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 10:27 PM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:36 AM mark24 has not yet responded
 Message 22 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 8:08 AM mark24 has responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3389 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 20 of 108 (616)
12-12-2001 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mark24
12-12-2001 3:32 AM


Didn't God create heaven & earth & LUCIFER???? To say he didn't implies that not everything is Gods work. Tut, tut. So why create something thats going to backstab you? God either deliberately created Lucifer to backstab him, or is such a bad designer he forgot to edit "evil" out. Same goes for Man.

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:32 AM mark24 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 7:57 AM mark24 has not yet responded

    
joz
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 108 (617)
12-12-2001 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by mark24
12-12-2001 3:36 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
Didn't God create heaven & earth & LUCIFER???? To say he didn't implies that not everything is Gods work. Tut, tut. So why create something thats going to backstab you? God either deliberately created Lucifer to backstab him, or is such a bad designer he forgot to edit "evil" out. Same goes for Man.

I once read a book by Peter Ustinov called the old man and mr smith it is about God and the devil meeting up on earth to see how things are going...

They discuss many things and in the course of the conversation mr smith asks why the old man pushed him out of heaven...

The old mans answer is that he needed something to be compared with in order to be seen as perfectly good, besides he adds you were getting bored anyway....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:36 AM mark24 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by mougios, posted 03-02-2004 4:16 AM joz has not yet responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 108 (618)
12-12-2001 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mark24
12-12-2001 3:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
But unborn children never fell. They are blameless. God gave STDs to people who DIDN'T abuse his gifts.

Didn't Jesus die for our sins? Seems he may as well put his feet up & enjoyed a day with a sixpack (for OUR sins, of course), for all the good it did. What was the point? If God is STILL insistent on punishing innocents. We may as well ALL give up & go home if we've been pre-judged in this malicious way.

"If you consider the fact that two people who withdraw from sexual attivity until marriage and then are faithful to one another it becomes apparent that my theory is true."

What ARE you talking about? Nothing would change on planet Earth if they shagged themselves stupid years before they got married (if they bothered at all).

Whether Adam sinned or not is irrelevant. I AM NOT A SINNER. How many Christians would accept life imprisonment on this basis? For being guilty of someone else's crime. NOT YOU, THAT'S FOR SURE!!

Utter rubbish. Please don't insult me saying I don't understand. What's to misinterpret?

I'm guilty of someone else's crime, Jesus died for my sin (actually someone elses), & I'm STILL TO BLAME!!!

Sheesh....God sure is hard to please....

So what's the point in Final Judgement if were ALL guilty anyway. Seems to me I may as well go & murder someone, because I'm already being blamed (I wonder if someone else gets the blame for that murder, maybe thats how it works).


Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation.

Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again.

Yes, God is hard to please. God is impossible for man to please. EVERYONE falls short of God's commandments and each one of those is a sin. Jesus did for the sin you committed, are committing currently, and the sin you destined to commit. For nothing can enter heaven that is not pure, but God with God anything is possible so Jesus is the path God gives us to take.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 3:32 AM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 8:30 AM redstang281 has responded
 Message 28 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 11:34 AM redstang281 has responded
 Message 36 by lburbank111, posted 12-12-2001 1:02 PM redstang281 has responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 108 (622)
12-12-2001 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by redstang281
12-12-2001 8:08 AM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation.

Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again.

Yes, God is hard to please. God is impossible for man to please. EVERYONE falls short of God's commandments and each one of those is a sin. Jesus did for the sin you committed, are committing currently, and the sin you destined to commit. For nothing can enter heaven that is not pure, but God with God anything is possible so Jesus is the path God gives us to take.


Ok:

a)Is there a set of internally consistent rules to follow in order to avoid sinning?

b)If there is I suggest it is possible to follow the rules and not sin.

c)If this is the case I stipulate that if there is free will we are not sinners until we ourselves have sinned.

d)In which case an unborn child is not a sinner or there is no free will.

So which is it to be original sin or free will? One of them needs to be voted off the island....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 8:08 AM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 9:48 AM joz has responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 108 (633)
12-12-2001 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by joz
12-12-2001 8:30 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Ok:

a)Is there a set of internally consistent rules to follow in order to avoid sinning?


Yes. But only God himself is capable of following them. Jesus followed all the rules during his life.

b)If there is I suggest it is possible to follow the rules and not sin.

[/QUOTE]

Only God can follow the rules.


c)If this is the case I stipulate that if there is free will we are not sinners until we ourselves have sinned.

d)In which case an unborn child is not a sinner or there is no free will.

So which is it to be original sin or free will? One of them needs to be voted off the island....

[/QUOTE]

Because God knows the future doesn't mean he controls it. You can plant a grass seed and know that it will only grow up grass and not a palm tree because you know the nature of the seed.

[This message has been edited by redstang281, 12-12-2001]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 8:30 AM joz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 9:53 AM redstang281 has responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 108 (634)
12-12-2001 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by redstang281
12-12-2001 9:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
Because God knows the future doesn't mean he controls it. You can plant a grass seed and know that it will only grow up grass and not a palm tree because you know the nature of the seed.

That is besides the point you cannot have both original sin and free will, One claims you will sin as a matter of course, the other that you determine your own actions....

So which is it to be free will of original sin you cant have both.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 9:48 AM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 10:24 AM joz has responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 108 (636)
12-12-2001 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by joz
12-12-2001 9:53 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
That is besides the point you cannot have both original sin and free will, One claims you will sin as a matter of course, the other that you determine your own actions....

So which is it to be free will of original sin you cant have both.....


Because you can not jump to the moon does that mean you do not have free will? It just means you are incapable of jumping to the moon. Just as man is incapable of not sinning but still has free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 9:53 AM joz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 10:51 AM redstang281 has responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 108 (641)
12-12-2001 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by redstang281
12-12-2001 10:24 AM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:

Because you can not jump to the moon does that mean you do not have free will? It just means you are incapable of jumping to the moon. Just as man is incapable of not sinning but still has free will.

But free will allows that a mans actions are not predetermined it is therefore feasible that a man acting of his own free will would not sin. You seem to be claiming that original sin implys that man must sin therefore renouncing the self determination imbued by free will.....

I ask again do you believe in free will or original sin for the two are mutually exclusive as you present them....

On another note your jumping to the moon analogy is faulty in that man has jumped to the moon (it took a long time, a lot of money and even more skull sweat but NASA did it).....

[This message has been edited by joz, 12-12-2001]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 10:24 AM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:04 PM joz has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3389 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 28 of 108 (645)
12-12-2001 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by redstang281
12-12-2001 8:08 AM


"Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation."

Actually, all the biblical account shows is that Adam can't take instructions. I wouldn't have eaten the apple & would therefore be innocent where Adam is not. It is obviously wrong to blame people for other peoples crimes. If I punched you in the face you wouldn't call the police & finger someone else, or would you?

I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all. No, thought not.

Also, why are some babies punished for Adams crimes with congenital illnesses that amount to a death sentence, yet others are allowed to live to a 100+ years?

"Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again. "

But why did he have to be nailed to a plank? Couldn't Jesus thrown a wild party for everyone, or Got a Video & KFC, or picked his nose so we can enter Heaven. God makes the rules he could have done it any way, surely? Hang on! Why am I surprised? This bloke causes babies to be born with HIV because someone 6,000 years ago ate an apple, why would he be compassionate to his own son?

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 8:08 AM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:10 PM mark24 has responded

    
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 108 (649)
12-12-2001 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by joz
12-12-2001 10:51 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
But free will allows that a mans actions are not predetermined it is therefore feasible that a man acting of his own free will would not sin. You seem to be claiming that original sin implys that man must sin therefore renouncing the self determination imbued by free will.....

I ask again do you believe in free will or original sin for the two are mutually exclusive as you present them....

On another note your jumping to the moon analogy is faulty in that man has jumped to the moon (it took a long time, a lot of money and even more skull sweat but NASA did it).....

[This message has been edited by joz, 12-12-2001]


The analogy meant with his own two feet. Geez!! Give me a break here.

I will say again, and I will say it over and over again if I have to, I believe in free will AND original sin. Because God set the standard of rules only on his attainability, it is impossible for a mortal man to comply with each rule. And the sin of Adam weighs upon all of our shoulders.

[This message has been edited by redstang281, 12-12-2001]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 10:51 AM joz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:21 PM redstang281 has responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 108 (652)
12-12-2001 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by mark24
12-12-2001 11:34 AM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation."

Actually, all the biblical account shows is that Adam can't take instructions. I wouldn't have eaten the apple & would therefore be innocent where Adam is not. It is obviously wrong to blame people for other peoples crimes. If I punched you in the face you wouldn't call the police & finger someone else, or would you?

I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all. No, thought not.

Also, why are some babies punished for Adams crimes with congenital illnesses that amount to a death sentence, yet others are allowed to live to a 100+ years?

"Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again. "

But why did he have to be nailed to a plank? Couldn't Jesus thrown a wild party for everyone, or Got a Video & KFC, or picked his nose so we can enter Heaven. God makes the rules he could have done it any way, surely? Hang on! Why am I surprised? This bloke causes babies to be born with HIV because someone 6,000 years ago ate an apple, why would he be compassionate to his own son?


Adam eating the apple was an example to God. It showed him the nature of man. We all came from Adam and are made of the same makeup as he. Maybe you wouldn't eat the apple, but you would do something else that is forbid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 11:34 AM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 12:27 PM redstang281 has responded

  
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