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Author Topic:   What are you? EvC poll
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 106 of 126 (317125)
06-02-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Rob
06-02-2006 11:40 PM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
Would you say that your comment (information is an abstraction), is 'informative' in any meaningful sense???
It was intended to be informative.
Note, however, that my comment is being stored magnetically on disks at evcforum. You possibly saw it as illuminations on the screen. These are entirely physical. There is nothing immaterial about them.
We take these completely material things, and then we pretend that those material things contain some quality, which we call "information". It is this pretend quality that is the abstraction. We know it is an abstraction. We invented this abstraction for our convenience in talking about communication. There isn't anything mystical or magical about it.
The question really is... is your statement true?
I certainly believe it to be true.
It is false, because it contradicts itself.
You will have to explain that.
By your own admission, your comment is nothing more than an abstraction...
Where does this "nothing more than" come from? I'm a mathematician, so abstractions are pretty much my bread and butter.
You would do better to explain why Steven Meyer is wrong, ...
I have just done so above. I have explained the origin of information, while Meyer apparently thinks that it cannot be explained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Rob, posted 06-02-2006 11:40 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 06-03-2006 12:08 AM nwr has replied
 Message 109 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 12:21 AM nwr has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1585 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 107 of 126 (317127)
06-03-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by nwr
06-02-2006 11:56 PM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
The problem you're having with comprehension here is that when Rob says that your statement that information is an abstraction "contradicts itself", it's because when he reads a statement like
quote:
Information is an abstraction.
the only way he knows how to interpret it is like this:
quote:
There is no such thing as truth.
Just wanted to make sure you both were on the same page.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by nwr, posted 06-02-2006 11:56 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by nwr, posted 06-03-2006 12:12 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 110 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 12:23 AM crashfrog has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 108 of 126 (317129)
06-03-2006 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by crashfrog
06-03-2006 12:08 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 06-03-2006 12:08 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 109 of 126 (317130)
06-03-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by nwr
06-02-2006 11:56 PM


This is going to be a blast!
We invented this abstraction for our convenience in talking about communication. There isn't anything mystical or magical about it.
I see! So you are saying that information comes from an intelligent source. I agree! Intelligent agents manipulate matter and energy into a recognizable pattern of (complex/specified/non-periodic/meaningful text).
You would do better to explain why Steven Meyer is wrong, ...
I have just done so above. I have explained the origin of information, while Meyer apparently thinks that it cannot be explained.
That is incorrect... Mr. Meyers makes exactly the same point you made. That information is created by intelligence!
Your the one who doesn't believe in 'intelligent design' remember???
That is why I said you contradict yourself, and you keep doing it because you are using logic to deny logic, and if you want to deny logic, you might as well talk about a one-ended stick.
-Mathematician, meet -Truck Driver
With all due respect, Rob
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 110 of 126 (317131)
06-03-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by crashfrog
06-03-2006 12:08 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
Yes, your right Crashfrog, but only partially... I am taking his statement to it's foundation. That is all...
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 06-03-2006 12:08 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by crashfrog, posted 06-03-2006 12:30 AM Rob has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1585 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 111 of 126 (317134)
06-03-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Rob
06-03-2006 12:23 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
Yes, your right Crashfrog, but only partially... I am taking his statement to it's foundation. That is all...
No, you're not. You're conflating a number of seperate concepts that really have nothing to do with each other. For instance, an "abstraction" is not the same as a "lie." Many abstractions are true.
A book contains no information if no one is able to read it. Information is simply an arrangement of matter - an abstraction - that causes changes in our brains, through our senses, that we recognize as information. If that information happens to be a true statement about the world, it's not because of anything the statement contains in itself; it's because we all have rules about how to create statements that improve the odds that they'll be true. We call those rules "reason."
And, no, I'm not condradicting myself. My statements are both abstractions and true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 12:23 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 12:40 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 112 of 126 (317136)
06-03-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by crashfrog
06-03-2006 12:30 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
A book contains no information if no one is able to read it.
A book 'cannot exist' if 'no-one' is able to read it, Because no-one was able to write it. At least, not unless we create an abstraction to imagine such a place.
All lie's are abstractions! Imaginations and inventions. Imposters!
Stop trying to '''''prove''''' abstractions to me please, lest you defeat yourself.
With the Sword of the counsellor, Rob
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by crashfrog, posted 06-03-2006 12:30 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 113 of 126 (317138)
06-03-2006 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
06-03-2006 12:40 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
All of this nonsense simply as a result of refusing to recognize the obvious!
'As Malcolm Muggeridge astutely observed, it is 'the depravity of man' that is at once the most unpopular of all dogmas and yet, the most empirically verifiable.' -Rzim.org
Because you will not admit your sin, you will never see a whole picture of reality and are condemned to a depraved mind.
Boys, your missing out on so much more... Think it over, your both too smart for that garbage...
Brother Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 12:40 AM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by nwr, posted 06-03-2006 1:03 AM Rob has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 114 of 126 (317139)
06-03-2006 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Rob
06-03-2006 12:56 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
All of this nonsense simply as a result of refusing to recognize the obvious!
The obvious is that you are way off topic for this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 12:56 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:07 AM nwr has not replied
 Message 116 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:14 AM nwr has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 115 of 126 (317140)
06-03-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by nwr
06-03-2006 1:03 AM


Re: This is pointless...
Just imagine me saying 'mea culpa' faster than Bill Clinton can bite his lower lip for the camera...
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by nwr, posted 06-03-2006 1:03 AM nwr has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 116 of 126 (317141)
06-03-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by nwr
06-03-2006 1:03 AM


It is people with made up minds like you [nwr] that Jesus was speaking to when he said, 'Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!' John 8:43-45

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:20 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 126 (317142)
06-03-2006 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rob
06-03-2006 1:14 AM


Discussion and Controversy

Doing the best I can with what I have at the moment...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:14 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:35 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 118 of 126 (317143)
06-03-2006 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rob
06-03-2006 1:20 AM


That was a blast!
updated profile... mail is always open.
Goodnight, Rob

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:20 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:44 AM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5967 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 119 of 126 (317145)
06-03-2006 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Rob
06-03-2006 1:35 AM


One more thing...
The Walls of Huntsville
By Robert Lockett
Though these walls of Huntsville may feel like a prison, God sets all ablaze and restores with precision.
He has given to others deserving it more. He gives us a new love, when we open the door.
The devil would have us believe it's our life, to do as we please take control of the knife.
The battle goes on and fools rush to her side, finding emptiness timeless in time deep inside.
She's a sly old serpent with time on her side, let’s look to the timeless get ready to ride.
There's flesh that needs carving, the sword is death to its pride, dividing the darkness with light down inside.
Our pride will not shine like she coached us thus far, lay it down in defeat, all that's left is the scar.
Do not miss that old love she deceived us in vain, to run from the truth is the essence of pain.
She can threaten and howl and remove our good name, scar us for life and shower us with shame.
Freeing the prisoners a bloody red mess, when your sword is kept clean there is eternal rest.
As we fish and ask men to walk out on this dock, through the gate at the end we can laugh at the clock.
Though the bricks won't come down till the day we go home, we trust in our savior 'the truth' and don't roam.
If the locks and the chains see no end in this place,
Just remember the keys are His glory and grace.
The walls of this place may be around till the end, we do not fear death it's a promise to mend.
He did more than promise He defeated her lies, when He rose from the dead and then into the skies.
So kick us and spit you can call us all fools, but if you'll face the light you'll be given new tools.
Try a sword and a shield with a whole set of armor, to drive away darkness with courage and honor.
Some things are inevitable, like our death and our sin, you can die now and start life all over again.
A new heaven and earth He'll set in a new light, if you'd like God can show you right now He is right.
Be honest with Him and you'll never regret, His reaching inside for your heart to reset.
He died on that cross for you just as for me, showed the evil of mans heart there at Calvary.
The truth came invading our time and our space, we nailed Him up high and revealed our disgrace.
The truth is the sword coming out of his mouth, to face it and hear is the end of all doubt.
Nobody can handle the light that He bears, submit to that glory you'll know that He cares.
While we we're still sinners you came to set free, the light undivided in love shines from thee.
So drop your defenses and look in His mirror, his law shows your heart to you painfully clearer.
Do not lie do not steal do not envy your neighbor, and that’s only three that will haunt you forever.
Just come as He wills, tell Him just who you are, in the light of his law you won't get very far.
If honesty shows you your full of disgrace, trust His divine love of mercy and grace.
He isn't like us for He gave His own life, to give us forgiveness when we gave Him strife.
I could write on forever bout our savior and Lord, His word lasts forever and strike a great chord.
He sees you and asks you to not be afraid, He loves you so much that your fine He has paid.
He knocks on the door of your heart and please hear me, I could not have imagined that God was so near me.
Once was lost now I'm found once was blind now I see, my Lord and my God 'the truth' may I serve thee.
-inspired by the song, ”The walls of Huntsville’ by Cross Canadian Ragweed-
Off Topic - If you must read content, use the Peek button but do not respond.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:35 AM Rob has not replied

  
Shh
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 126 (317188)
06-03-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Rob
06-02-2006 10:30 PM


emergent properties
Like "mind", "information" is an emergent property of material systems.
Or rather, "information" is the name given to the abstract concept which is correspondent, to an emergent property of material objects within a system, which may affect the operation of the system.(I think)
There's no point in looking to the DI for understanding of materialist or naturalist philosophies they don't understand them, nor do they want to.
Much of "reality" contains such, if they were a problem for naturalist/materialist/mechanist philosophies, then these philosophies would have been forgotten long ago.
On the other hand if you're a Dualist, can you point out a single example of the second component of reeality?
Matter and energy are one thing, what else is there?
(Please don't say mind, it's already included as a property of matter, and unless there's reason to believe otherwise I (for one) won't.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Rob, posted 06-02-2006 10:30 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 6:54 PM Shh has not replied

  
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