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Author Topic:   Magnetism
Argonath
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 28 (350132)
09-18-2006 10:56 PM


Ok, I'm new to these forums, and this is my first topic.
sooo, magnetism!
In school we are studying "earth science" and i sat and thought about it.
In essence, what is magnetism. By this I mean How was the first magnet created. I mean, I know north and south poles, but what force would make something like that happen. Is it something spiritual or what. IDK but it baffles me.
I thought this might make a good discussion topic, so discuss away!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by kalimero, posted 09-20-2006 3:00 AM Argonath has replied

  
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Message 2 of 28 (350220)
09-19-2006 9:02 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2550 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 3 of 28 (350568)
09-20-2006 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Argonath
09-18-2006 10:56 PM


Every proton and electron have a charge (+- 1.6*10^-19 respectivly IIRC), a magnetic field (the area in which a magnitic force is present [theoreticaly everywhere]) is created when charged paticles move, and this is represented by the equation: F=qv X B.
F (vector) - the magnetic force being produced.
q - the size of the charge.
v (vector) - the velocity of the charged particle.
B (vector) - the size of the magnetic field.
v X B = v*Bsin(v^B)
v^B - the angle between the direction of movement and the direction of the magnetic field.
From this equation we can see that if there is no charge (q=0), and/or no movement (v=0), etc. then there is no magnetic force.
The basic element which interacts in order to produce this force is a photon (like light), though I dont know much about the subject, I think someone with a better knowledge of phisics could help .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Argonath, posted 09-18-2006 10:56 PM Argonath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Argonath, posted 09-20-2006 8:37 AM kalimero has not replied

  
Argonath
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 28 (350613)
09-20-2006 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by kalimero
09-20-2006 3:00 AM


Thanks
But i was also trying to "ask" how magnetic force was created. As in, how and where was the first magnet made and what made it. like if god suddenly made the universe and said "hey, see that rock over there, its gonna pull metal things to itself, wouldnt that be cool!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by kalimero, posted 09-20-2006 3:00 AM kalimero has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 09-20-2006 9:35 AM Argonath has not replied
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 09-20-2006 9:43 AM Argonath has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-20-2006 1:27 PM Argonath has not replied
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 09-20-2006 1:37 PM Argonath has not replied
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 09-20-2006 2:10 PM Argonath has not replied
 Message 10 by kuresu, posted 09-20-2006 8:05 PM Argonath has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13084
From: EvC Forum
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Message 5 of 28 (350634)
09-20-2006 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Argonath
09-20-2006 8:37 AM


As already described, a magnetic field is a result of a moving charge, and the photon mediates the magnetic force between charged objects.
That's the scientific answer. If you're looking for a theological answer then I should perhaps move this thread to one of the religious forums, perhaps [forum=-34].

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Argonath, posted 09-20-2006 8:37 AM Argonath has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 6 of 28 (350638)
09-20-2006 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Argonath
09-20-2006 8:37 AM


I have found this site to provide some good answers to questions I have about science. Just type in a question in the search bar such as "What Is Magnetism" and see the results in that website.
Keep studying!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Argonath, posted 09-20-2006 8:37 AM Argonath has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34114
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 7 of 28 (350686)
09-20-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Argonath
09-20-2006 8:37 AM


Not really cool.
like if god suddenly made the universe and said "hey, see that rock over there, its gonna pull metal things to itself, wouldnt that be cool!"
That would mean that you should fear every piece of food you eat, every vaccine you take, never dare to ride in a car, much less an airplane.
That is the world of MAGIC, a terrifying place.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Argonath, posted 09-20-2006 8:37 AM Argonath has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 28 (350689)
09-20-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Argonath
09-20-2006 8:37 AM


A better scenario.
More likely, god created the world suddenly, and then after waiting several million years for the expanding universe to cool sufficiently so that atoms, molecules, and rocks could form, she notice that some rocks pull other rocks to themselves and said, "Whoa! That is totally cool and unexpected! I'm sure to get an A for this project!"

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3397 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 28 (350703)
09-20-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Argonath
09-20-2006 8:37 AM


While Noah was waiting for the water to recede (which took a year), he had a lot of time to think about sea travel. One day, he prayed, "Oh lord, beside masturbating to help pass the time, I have been thinking of ways for my children's children to travel across oceans of water. I've been trying to think of ways for them to navigate but can't seem to come up with anyway."
Then the lord responded, "You have a point there, old man. Very well, I will create the force of electromagnetism to help your children's children nagigate across the seas. Furthermore, I will not give Venus an E&M field to confuse the hell out of future scientists."
Noah thought for a second, looked up and said, "What the who what now?"
And that is how electromagnetism was created. Amen.

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2618 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 10 of 28 (350812)
09-20-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Argonath
09-20-2006 8:37 AM


well, if you're talking about magnets as in fridge magnets, we can go to the greeks.
There's a naturally occuring rock that is magnetic--magnetite (hence where the term magnet, magnetism, et al came from). They realized that if pointed towards one general direction, and voila, the compass was born. highly simplified, and no doubt some gross errors, but . . .
there are other types of magnets, from the electromagnets (like they use in junkyards for lifting scrap) to those created during WWII (NiCd something else), and some others.
basically, the first magnet, as I understand the term, was found by the greeks, but not really put to any good use (at that time). The first magnetic force, well, that's been answered by Kalimero.
abe:
your moniker--aren't those the statues just past Lothlorien that are built into the cliff walls by the river?
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Argonath, posted 09-20-2006 8:37 AM Argonath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 09-20-2006 9:24 PM kuresu has replied
 Message 15 by Argonath, posted 09-21-2006 9:03 AM kuresu has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3397 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 28 (350834)
09-20-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by kuresu
09-20-2006 8:05 PM


kuresu writes:
the first magnet, as I understand the term, was found by the greeks...
Actually, I'm pretty sure the Chinese magicians were able to use the magnetic force long before the greeks.
It's sad to think that even though the earth's magnetic field was discovered by various civilizations throughout the ages, noone actually bothered to put it to good use until the renaissance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by kuresu, posted 09-20-2006 8:05 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by kuresu, posted 09-20-2006 9:34 PM Taz has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2618 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 12 of 28 (350839)
09-20-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
09-20-2006 9:24 PM


you may be right--I know they had the first compasses, but . . .
when did the greeks and chinese find thier first magnets? The only naturally occuring ones I know of are in Greece, but there are probably more sources.
what's really sad, is that the chinese were the first to circumnavigate and map the world, and a good 70 years at least before columbus even got to Hispaniola. I mean, they even had colonies on the west coast of the US. And then, isolationism kicked in, and the renassaince in europe started. anywho, not really on topic, huh?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 09-20-2006 9:24 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Taz, posted 09-20-2006 9:54 PM kuresu has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3397 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 13 of 28 (350847)
09-20-2006 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by kuresu
09-20-2006 9:34 PM


You don't need a magnet to discover the earth's magnetic field.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by kuresu, posted 09-20-2006 9:34 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by kuresu, posted 09-20-2006 10:01 PM Taz has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2618 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 14 of 28 (350852)
09-20-2006 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taz
09-20-2006 9:54 PM


no, you don't. But argonath's question included something about hte first magnets and where they came from. so I attempted a highly simplified answer.
magnets help, of course, in finding out you've got a magnetic field. at least, with finding out earlier. but I don't think I was trying to make the point that we needed magnets to discover the field. If it came off like that, well, it was unintentional.

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This message is a reply to:
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Argonath
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 28 (350956)
09-21-2006 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by kuresu
09-20-2006 8:05 PM


yea theyre on the anduin river b4 the waterfalls.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-28-2006 12:03 PM Argonath has not replied

  
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