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Author Topic:   Why does Richard Dawkins sing Christmas carols?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 286 of 301 (446355)
01-05-2008 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by riVeRraT
01-05-2008 10:20 AM


riVerRat writes:

Well the bible is a good start. As we read the bible, and debate about it here in these forums, at least we can say that believing in God is subjective, just like believing in atheism.

People don't believe in atheism. Atheism isn't a faith, river, it is lack of faith. Atheists do not actively walk around disbelieving in something tangible. Humans have invented thousands of Gods, and everyone lacks faith in more than 99.9% of them, including you.

I'm perfectly willing to believe in any Gods, Goddesses or other supernatural beings just as soon as there's evidence for one or more of them.

Atheists are just people who do not make up a magical father figure in their heads, then believe in it.

Perhaps we're not very good at lying to ourselves.:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by riVeRraT, posted 01-05-2008 10:20 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 11:39 AM bluegenes has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 287 of 301 (446860)
01-07-2008 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Granny Magda
01-05-2008 7:50 PM


Re: Crash, in my heart ...
Yes, that's because they are objective; they exist whether we believe in them or not. It would be strange to have believed in neutrinos before any evidence of their existence was found. Like it or not, if you want to say that god is real then you are saying that he is an objective reality. If he is subjective, then he is just a figment.

I don't seem to be having any trouble with objectivity/subjectivity. Only those that live in a current state of knowledge do. I believe God is an objective reality, but in our current state of knowledge, we cannot prove Him to each other. But God can prove Himself to each individual. That makes Him subjective by scientific terms only. The only way I currently know of showing God to each other, is by sharing the love with each other, that He shares with us. Love is subjective, yet it exists.

People have always believed that the sun is a living being or that it is vital to sacrifice animals to one's ancestors; do you think that makes it more true?

Well those people, and we can make that leap of faith now, were wrong. But my point was to point out the yearning to know more, and to explain where we came from. It seems all humans have that desire. It matters not how many people believe in God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Granny Magda, posted 01-05-2008 7:50 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Granny Magda, posted 01-07-2008 3:47 PM riVeRraT has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 288 of 301 (446862)
01-07-2008 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by bluegenes
01-05-2008 8:40 PM


I'm perfectly willing to believe in any Gods, Goddesses or other supernatural beings just as soon as there's evidence for one or more of them.

Will you limit the evidence to only the objective?

Atheists are just people who do not make up a magical father figure in their heads, then believe in it.

Or maybe they just haven't met with God yet. See, you cannot prove it either way. So you cannot go and make that statement. That's my whole point. Many atheists say Christians have a chip on their shoulder, just because they believe in God, and they don't. I see it the other way around.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by bluegenes, posted 01-05-2008 8:40 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Modulous, posted 01-07-2008 12:09 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 290 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 3:40 PM riVeRraT has responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 289 of 301 (446873)
01-07-2008 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by riVeRraT
01-07-2008 11:39 AM


Will you limit the evidence to only the objective?

There is plenty of objective evidence that suggests a subjective experience that some people associate with a deity. I am perfectly happy to believe that gods and devils and djinn and ghosts exist within people's minds because of this evidence. The evidence we look for though, is the evidence that these entities exist anywhere other than in our minds.

Or maybe they just haven't met with God yet.

I 'met God'. The experience matches the described experience of religious people exactly, and I have had the experience many times while contemplating a variety of gods or higher beings. I realized that the experience is not evidence for higher beings and have had the same experience while spending an evening stargazing. Experiencing the mysterium tremendum et fascinans does not necessitate belief in a deity, though the power of the experience often convinces people that said deities exist (though the nature of these deities varies wildly).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 11:39 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 5:10 PM Modulous has responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 290 of 301 (446932)
01-07-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by riVeRraT
01-07-2008 11:39 AM


river writes:

Will you limit the evidence to only the objective?

Yes. If there are 2 billion Christians, then there are 2 billion subjectively experienced Gods, to which we can add 1.5 billion Allahs, the 1 billion Gods or sets of Gods in the minds of Hindus, and many more from other religions.

So, I have no choice but the objective, as it's impossible to walk around considering the possible existence of about 5 billion different Gods in different minds. Try it.

As for the riverrat God, I'm sure he's very dear to you, but of little or no interest to anyone else.

Or maybe they just haven't met with God yet.

No person but you can meet the riverrat God.

See, you cannot prove it either way. So you cannot go and make that statement. That's my whole point.

You seem to live in a world in which any supernatural proposition automatically becomes a fifty/fifty thing once it's been made.

I, the prophet bluegenes, propose that the universe was created by nine Goddesses because they thought it would look pretty, and they were curious to see what would happen in black holes.

To parrot: "See, you can't prove it either way".

There's exactly as much evidence for my belief in the Holy Ninety as there is for any other religion (zero), and there's absolutely no conflict with science in my theology.

Many atheists say Christians have a chip on their shoulder, just because they believe in God, and they don't. I see it the other way around.

I don't remember noticing any atheists in my life or on this board talking about chips on Christian shoulders. About how many is "many"?

Anyway, I've just become a polytheist. Blessed be the Nine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 11:39 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 5:08 PM bluegenes has not yet responded
 Message 300 by riVeRraT, posted 01-08-2008 1:06 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 26 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 291 of 301 (446935)
01-07-2008 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by riVeRraT
01-07-2008 11:36 AM


riVeRraT writes:

I don't seem to be having any trouble with objectivity/subjectivity. Only those that live in a current state of knowledge do.

Huh? Are you implying that we can know nothing? What are you talking about?

riVeRraT writes:

I believe God is an objective reality, but in our current state of knowledge, we cannot prove Him to each other.

I agree with the highlighted section.

riVeRraT writes:

But God can prove Himself to each individual. That makes Him subjective by scientific terms only.

That makes your personal experience of what you interpret as god a subjective one, yes. God himself remains objective.

riVeRraT writes:

But my point was to point out the yearning to know more, and to explain where we came from.

Forgive me, but the point you made was to imply that the antiquity of a belief is evidence of its correctness. It is not. Similarly, the all-pervasive nature of human curiosity is proof of nothing more than our having a brain that likes to spot patterns and solve problems, that's all.
We seem to have wandered off topic. To drag us back on course, are you any more ready to accept that Dawkins' description of himself as an atheist is compatible with his being a scientist, and his willingness to admit that he might be wrong?


Mutate and Survive
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 11:36 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 5:16 PM Granny Magda has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 292 of 301 (446968)
01-07-2008 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by bluegenes
01-07-2008 3:40 PM


So, I have no choice but the objective, as it's impossible to walk around considering the possible existence of about 5 billion different Gods in different minds. Try it.

I wasn't asking you to do that. People believing in God, is not proof of God. Only subjective evidence. I asked you about objective evidence, so I have no idea why you brought up the subjective again.

No person but you can meet the riverrat God.

There is no riverrat god.

You seem to live in a world in which any supernatural proposition automatically becomes a fifty/fifty thing once it's been made.

I have made it very clear in this thread, more than once, that it is not a 50/50 thing. The fact that you said that, is evidence of your comprehension, or your prejudice.

There's exactly as much evidence for my belief in the Holy Ninety as there is for any other religion

No there isn't, because it is not a 50/50 thing, or is it black and white. Claiming it is, is just a lie, or pure ignorance of religion, Santa Claus, and God. An educated consumer is our best customer. If you truly believe after studying the bible completely, and Santa Claus completely, that they are identical, then maybe you have no chance. You have closed the door, and only God will open it for you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 3:40 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 293 of 301 (446971)
01-07-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Modulous
01-07-2008 12:09 PM


I 'met God'. The experience matches the described experience of religious people exactly, and I have had the experience many times while contemplating a variety of gods or higher beings. I realized that the experience is not evidence for higher beings and have had the same experience while spending an evening stargazing. Experiencing the mysterium tremendum et fascinans does not necessitate belief in a deity, though the power of the experience often convinces people that said deities exist (though the nature of these deities varies wildly).

I understand what you are saying, but I have to question those people who have had multiple "religious" experiences. There was a guy here once that claimed to have gone through 7 conversion processes. If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?

The feeling I get from "mysterium tremendum" and God, are very different.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Modulous, posted 01-07-2008 12:09 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by ringo, posted 01-07-2008 5:40 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 297 by Modulous, posted 01-08-2008 6:25 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 294 of 301 (446974)
01-07-2008 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Granny Magda
01-07-2008 3:47 PM


Huh? Are you implying that we can know nothing? What are you talking about?

How much do you think we know?

Forgive me, but the point you made was to imply that the antiquity of a belief is evidence of its correctness.

No, it means nothing. Only that we desire "to know." The bible says God created us to worship, and seek Him.

To drag us back on course, are you any more ready to accept that Dawkins' description of himself as an atheist is compatible with his being a scientist, and his willingness to admit that he might be wrong?

Not really. He's saying- I am an atheist...but if. This whole atheist/theist is nothing more than a way to separate ourselves. If we all truly admitted we were agnostic, then we might all get along better.

To answer the question of the OT, as to why does Richard Dawkins sing X-mas carols, the answer is, because he can. pffft.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Granny Magda, posted 01-07-2008 3:47 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Granny Magda, posted 01-07-2008 6:57 PM riVeRraT has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16443
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 295 of 301 (446985)
01-07-2008 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by riVeRraT
01-07-2008 5:10 PM


riVeRraT writes:

If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?

That one's going in the signature. It really sums up what people have been trying to tell you and some other Christians for years. :)


“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT
This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 5:10 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by riVeRraT, posted 01-08-2008 1:00 PM ringo has not yet responded

Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 26 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 296 of 301 (447008)
01-07-2008 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by riVeRraT
01-07-2008 5:16 PM


riVeRraT writes:

How much do you think we know?

Oh please don't start that kind of nonsense.

riVeRraT writes:

Not really. He's saying- I am an atheist...but if. This whole atheist/theist is nothing more than a way to separate ourselves. If we all truly admitted we were agnostic, then we might all get along better.

More likely, we would have absolutely no useful way of describing our beliefs to each other, and anyone who wanted to ascribe to a belief, or lack thereof, would have to be a fundamentalist, who could admit no possibility of being wrong.


Mutate and Survive
This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 5:16 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by riVeRraT, posted 01-08-2008 12:58 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 297 of 301 (447124)
01-08-2008 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by riVeRraT
01-07-2008 5:10 PM


If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?

Exactly - apparently us atheists are called militant when we say things like this...so you had best be careful :)

The feeling I get from "mysterium tremendum" and God, are very different.

Perhaps you could start a thread on it? I have never heard any difference in the descriptions between my experiences and any religious one, except in the case of epilepsy which I concede may be more powerful.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by riVeRraT, posted 01-07-2008 5:10 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 298 of 301 (447178)
01-08-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Granny Magda
01-07-2008 6:57 PM


Oh please don't start that kind of nonsense.

It's not nonsense, it's realistic. All scientist, and people who base their lives on logic, and current knowledge are limiting themselves to what we know, which is by nature, always going to be limited.

I asked a member here once to define love, and he gave me some lengthy scientific description of how we think our brains process love. I told him to go home and tell his wife that, instead of I love you.

More likely, we would have absolutely no useful way of describing our beliefs to each other, and anyone who wanted to ascribe to a belief, or lack thereof, would have to be a fundamentalist, who could admit no possibility of being wrong.

It's ok, I will go along with your description, and his. I was just making a point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Granny Magda, posted 01-07-2008 6:57 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 299 of 301 (447179)
01-08-2008 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by ringo
01-07-2008 5:40 PM


That one's going in the signature. It really sums up what people have been trying to tell you and some other Christians for years.

Your so cute when your dumb :)

Ringo, "the spokes person for all against riverrat."

It's funny, I am totally willing to accept my idea of God as being wrong, but your not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ringo, posted 01-07-2008 5:40 PM ringo has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 300 of 301 (447181)
01-08-2008 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by bluegenes
01-07-2008 3:40 PM


I, the prophet bluegenes, propose that the universe was created by nine Goddesses because they thought it would look pretty, and they were curious to see what would happen in black holes.

Oh, one more thing before I decide to commit to the nine. Can you please die and rise again?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by bluegenes, posted 01-07-2008 3:40 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

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