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Author Topic:   Paul speaking only for himself (a question, not a debate)
cmanteuf
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 92
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 11-08-2004


Message 1 of 16 (241013)
09-07-2005 10:49 AM


Quick question, think this is the best spot for it. If I'm wrong a moderator will surely resolve it.

I remember from reading the Epistles there is a point where Paul says something like "speaking only for myself here, and not for God" after providing God's view on an issue. What passage is that?

I remembered it in the pastoral's but a quick search through 1, 2 Timothy and Titus didn't find it.

Thanks in advance,

Chris


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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 16 (241030)
09-07-2005 11:57 AM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.
  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1620 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 3 of 16 (241035)
09-07-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cmanteuf
09-07-2005 10:49 AM


Paul Speaking
In 1 Corinthians 7 there are several instances of Paul asserting his own opinion.

6 I say this as a concession, not as a command...

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):...

25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgement as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.

Hopefully this is what you were thinking of.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 4 of 16 (241037)
09-07-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cmanteuf
09-07-2005 10:49 AM


Try Romans.
Romans 3
4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

That may be what you were thinking about.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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cmanteuf
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 92
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 11-08-2004


Message 5 of 16 (241054)
09-07-2005 1:20 PM


Thanks
Thank you both,

Corinthians was the one I was trying to remember; the Romans one I had forgotten about completely. So thanks to both of you.

Have a good day,

Chris


  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 2058 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 6 of 16 (261173)
11-18-2005 11:55 PM


"not a debate"
Would it be wrong for me to point out that in the passage from 1st Corinthians
7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

the author is referring to a teaching which is explained in the gospels * Mark
10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

This covers a case where two believers are married, neither of them is allowed to leave. He doesn't have a saying to agraphify for the next case, so he talks on his own authority * 1st Corinthians
7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart.

And good riddance. Note the veiled cut at these folks, they aren't "really" married. But still, the believer can't leave them.

But he definitely doesnt assert that this application of the teachings is "just his own opinion" in the sense of not being authoritative

7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

Paul never has any trouble asserting that his word is THE Word
7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2156 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 7 of 16 (261197)
11-19-2005 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Iblis
11-18-2005 11:55 PM


Re: "not a debate"
Welcome,Iblis. And as spin-doctor for the Romans(authorities), Paul had no trouble inserting civil instructions. No wonder wherever he went where the Romans had control, he was accommodated with the appointed heads: Gallio at Corinth,Claudias Lysias at Jerusalem,Festus at Caesarea,Publius at Melita, Julius on the way to Rome. Knowing Titus`s mistress, Bernice, must have come in handy,too.
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1211 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 16 (261289)
11-19-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Nighttrain
11-19-2005 3:42 AM


Re: "not a debate"
Welcome,Iblis. And as spin-doctor for the Romans(authorities), Paul had no trouble inserting civil instructions. No wonder wherever he went where the Romans had control, he was accommodated with the appointed heads: Gallio at Corinth,Claudias Lysias at Jerusalem,Festus at Caesarea,Publius at Melita, Julius on the way to Rome. Knowing Titus`s mistress, Bernice, must have come in handy,too.

Do you know why Paul had such power and connections with Rome ?

His brother (Rufus Pudens, Romans 16) was a Senator, Paul himself was a Roman citizen. The Romans letter was addressed to the Church at Rome: which was the household of the conquered British-Seleurian king Caradoc, known as Caractacus. This vanquished chief was given in-house parole by the Roman senate instead of a death sentence as recorded by Tacitis. His daughter, Gladys (not to be confused with his wife of the same name) was adopted by the Emperor and he changed her name to Claudia. She married Rufus Pudens. While under subjugation, Caradoc was converted.

It is to THIS household....Paul wrote "...to all that be at Rome".

Paul was a doulos/slave of Christ - not Rome, as is witnessed by his martyrdom their at the hands of the Romans.

Ray


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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2156 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 9 of 16 (261325)
11-19-2005 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
11-19-2005 2:35 PM


Re: "not a debate"
Paul was a doulos/slave of Christ - not Rome, as is witnessed by his martyrdom their at the hands of the Romans.

Any evidence outside of church sources?


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3122 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 10 of 16 (261341)
11-19-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Nighttrain
11-19-2005 5:53 PM


How did he die?
No one even knows for sure how Paul died. There's a tradition that he died in prison, and another tradition that he was beheaded. But, there is no external contemporary evidence of Paul's death. Having said that, there is no external evidence of any apostle's death either.

Brian.


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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2156 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 11 of 16 (261355)
11-19-2005 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
11-19-2005 6:41 PM


Re: How did he die?
I suspect Paul might have talked himself to death.:-p
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 2058 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 12 of 16 (261359)
11-19-2005 7:32 PM


Yeah Paul gets all the hot girls in Acts and * Romans
16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

He also doesn't have any trouble showing his opponents up in a name-dropping duel
16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

Get it, "labour" ?!? :laugh:

So anyway Wow

16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Thanks for the reference.

Herepton writes:


the conquered British-Seleurian king Caradoc, known as Caractacus


Where's that documented from? (Other than Robert de Borron, I mean)
  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1211 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 13 of 16 (261601)
11-20-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
11-19-2005 6:41 PM


Re: How did he die?
No one even knows for sure how Paul died.

Agreed.

There's a tradition that he died in prison,

Never heard of this, not saying it doesn't exist.

and another tradition that he was beheaded.

The key word here is "tradition". 2Timothy has Paul saying his death is eminent. A "tradition" is something that the generation in question accepted as fact, followed by every successive generation. A "legend" is a story that the generation in question rejected as fact BUT later re-appeared in other generations. The tradition of Paul's beheading is a tradition accepted by multiple quarters of christendom, from the British church, Rome, Jerusalem, and of course Antioch. These are compelling lines of evidence SINCE, in the 1st century, NO modern communication abilities existed. Such a "tale" would have never made it past Rome. The tradition of Paul's beheading is a fact, although Dr. Scott says there is ample evidence it actually came well after 2Timothy - that being a false alarm.

Brian: are truth and accuracy synonymous ?

But, there is no external contemporary evidence of Paul's death. Having said that, there is no external evidence of any apostle's death either.

By traditions and legends there is.

While I degraded "legends" above; all are NOT untrue. If the legend corresponds with unconnected facts then historians have a basis.

Legend says Thomas was martyred near Madras, India. The legend is supported by the fact that there is an ancient church at Mt. St. Thomas, India. The fact that we are talking INDIA shows there can be no bias since that land is ruled by non-christians.

In addition, there exists NOT ONE shred of evidence contradicting any martyrdom legend or tradition. If the accounts are not true THEN surely history would betray and cough up something - yet nothing, zero, zip.

Ray


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Iblis
Member (Idle past 2058 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 14 of 16 (262132)
11-21-2005 6:41 PM


Hard Reading
I suspect Paul might have talked himself to death

I bet he did! I'd like to say, maybe he tried to read what he'd written, but I wouldn't bet on that. But talked himself to death in the old country sense, you bet.

Paul writes difficult, information-rich sentences that are hard to follow no matter how sharp the translators might be. I had to read this bit Jar provides from Romans 3 several times to think I might be getting the gist of some of it

3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

What he appears to be saying is that when not just some hypothetical Jew but he himself when he was a Jew, when he studied and recited and memorized the Law, he didn't really believe it. Not just some theoretical modern Jewish atheist but he himself, Paul, he didn't believe what he was saying. He was repeating statements he at that time "knew" to be false, from an ethical viewpoint he was telling outright lies.

BUT that doesn't make the statements themselves untrue does it? The mental attitude of the person repeating the data does not make data that was true in the lab suddenly untrue at the copying machine through sheer magic does it?

To paraphrase a further application into a modern scenario, the fact that plenty of Bible scholars don't believe a word of it doesn't affect the quality of their job at all. Did you learn stuff? Are you studying hard? Are you full of the Word, have you had a hot coal set on your heart, do you have complaints to make against heaven? They are doing a good job then.

In the big plan, "atheists" who understand a variety of hashing methods and use them methodically to insure perfect duplication of texts have the best copy of the Old Testament because believers are too lazy and forgiving to keep extraneous material from creeping in.

* Oh, this certainly doesn't help with the idea of Paul having opinions that weren't authoritative. We get the idea that even though he didn't believe the Law when he was a Jew and subject to it, now that he is an Apostle and the Law is whatever he says it is, he likes it just fine!


  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 4601 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 15 of 16 (295247)
03-14-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Nighttrain
11-19-2005 7:16 PM


Talked to death?
Nighttrain writes:

I suspect Paul might have talked himself to death.:-p


Paul talked Eutychus to death, so to speak:

9And there sat in the window a certain young man named Eutychus, borne down with deep sleep; and as Paul discoursed yet longer, being borne down by his sleep he fell down from the third story, and was taken up dead. 10And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Make ye no ado; for his life is in him. 11And when he was gone up, and had broken the bread, and eaten, and had talked with them a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. 12And they brought the lad alive, and were not a little comforted.

Acts 20 (ASV)


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