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Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: God and the blind Tailors | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RevCrossHugger Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
Note to Mod or Admin. I may of placed this in the wrong area, please feel free to move it.
God and the blind Tailors I am an open theist Christian minister,(aka neo-theism) ‘church’ owner and proprietor of two NP Christian humanitarian missions. I managed to make it through seminary and receive my MA a couple of decades ago. Just a little background. ~ forward as they say; I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe. We all worship the same God whether we know it or not! What I mean by that kind of blasphemous statement is best understood by a metaphor. Imagine a model (God) is being fitted for a suit of clothes (the religions) by freshmen student tailors at the local university. Well after a few days all the students have their suites (religions) ready of the model (God) to try on. None fit perfectly, but some are nearly perfect. And the worst ones are like a potato sack! Well of course being a Christian I feel that my students suit fit’s the very best! The cut and style is nearly perfect. So you see even though the other religions do not describe God more closely they are not as right as my religion is. I choose the Hebrew God (rather God chose me). I hope this makes some sense, although it won’t solve many problems perhaps it will shed some light on my beliefs. :{>
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4755 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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onifre Member (Idle past 3205 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi Revcrosshugger, welcome to EvC,
I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe. We all worship the same God whether we know it or not! What about religious sects that have no diety, or their "deity" is an object. Why would they even need to "tailor a suit," when their 'deity' is the sun? What about those that don't worship at all, they are just diest? What about atheist?
So you see even though the other religions do not describe God more closely they are not as right as my religion is. Care to support that with some evidence?
I hope this makes some sense, although it won’t solve many problems perhaps it will shed some light on my beliefs. I beleive this sheds light into the arrogance of belief and faith. - Oni
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Granny Magda Member (Idle past 293 days) Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: |
Hi Rev and welcome.
quote: Aaah, you're a Baha'i! Seriously though, Christianity seems an odd choice for someone of this opinion. The Bible is not just explicitely monotheistic, but jealously, even violently so. It even goes so far as to demand the slaughter of heretical believers. Some believers have been only too happy to oblige. This seems like a strange attitude for a single-yet-plural god such as the one you describe. I'm sure that you will seek to explain this by reference to human failure to properly understand God's message. My problem is that if the Bible authors could get something as important as this so horribly, horribly wrong, why should we listen to them at all? My other general problem with the idea is that it seems that such a nebulous god could never be supported with any kind of evidence: it would be impossible to pin down. At least most religions make some kind of concrete claims that we can compare to reality (mainly coming up trumps in my view). More than any other kind of religious belief, your kind of god is dependant on pure faith and your personal desire for a benign deity.
quote: Onifre asked you for evidence for this, but I don't think you can possibly have nay. If all religions are inaccurately describing the same god, the only difference between them, as far as theology goes, would be completely subjective. You have reduced all religious differences to a matter of trivial personal whim. Now that sounds like a pretty good thing to me, but I am puzzled as to why you would go so far toward deism or even agnosticism and yet keep the trappings of a Christian religion that is no more than a fashion statement or accident of birth. Any thoughts? Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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RevCrossHugger Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
quote: Thanks for the warm welcome and the rather chilly questions! Now all this is just my beliefs, which I don’t think goes against scripture. That said the religious sects that have no deity have no need of a tailor. The Buddhists for example, while some do have supernatural beliefs they have no deity like the Hebrew God or Ra (pronounced Ree or R-e, are-e) etc. The suit was simply an analogy. For example lets say I worshiped Annu as the Egyptians called Ra. I would say that he was the head of the Heliopolitan ennead (an attribute) At sunrise he is Khepera, (an attribute) represented by the sacred scarab (another attribute) so on and so forth. Still I would be assigning these attributes to the creator. Are they correct? Who knows, I for one think not. Still God remains God.
quote: I don’t mind telling you the evidence I use to support the Christian God. I use the KCA to get a undetermined God into the universe then work backwards to support it. First I think biblical prophesy supports the Hebrew God and Christianity. The fulfilled prophesy. Then I use the bible. The bible is written on several different levels, there are parable, songs, poetry, letters to churches prophesy and history as well as practical advice and more. Don't get me wrong the bible is not a science book nor a history book etc, its a primarily manual on how to save ones soul, and a book to help the human race understand God. Biblical history is being verified by archeology. Additionally, the bible is one of the most accurate ancient document we have. Recently a silver scroll was found. The location of the find and analysis of the Hebrew on the scroll confirm a date close to 600 BC, perhaps earlier a long time before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile. The significance of this find can scarcely be overstated. It confirms this section of Numbers was written at least 2,600 years ago. This Old Testament passage is 400 years older than the oldest Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts, and perhaps even older yet. The silver scroll silver scrolls are not only the oldest extant (still in existence) text of the Bible, they also provide compelling support to the authorship of the first five books of the Bible by Moses. I use other evidences to support my paradigm but for brevity I will save them for another response.
quote: With all due respect the arrogance you speak of seems to originate elsewhere.Thanks for your reply. ;}>
Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
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RevCrossHugger Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
I'm not ignoring you Ms Granny Magda, my recreational computer time is limited, I will answer you soon. I hope that I clarified the claim I made. Nevertheless I thought that Onifre was asking me to support why I would say that the Christian religion is a more logical choice.
Be back soon nice forum btw... : }>
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AnswersInGenitals Member (Idle past 406 days) Posts: 673 Joined: |
Well of course being a Christian I feel that my students suit fit’s the very best! The cut and style is nearly perfect. And the worst ones are like a potato sack! But if it is really the potatoes that are made in god's image, then your well tailored suit is actually the worst of the bunch. The worshipers of the SPM (Swimming Potato Monster) are the best tailors. You seem to be striving for some form of unitarianism, but you just can't break yourself away from an "Us/Them" mentality. But there is no need for you to despair: when the One True God does eventually call you to his service, this will no longer be a problem. In the mean time, stick with whatever religious delusions best suit you.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange rev ...
Hope things are well with you. Some have accused me of worse crimes than open theism. I commend you on your ability to distinguish between real[ity] and roman[ce].
I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe. I find it difficult to believe that you really think only that. It appears to over simplify things tremendously. Within the intricately woven realm of the twenty-first century’s plural societies remains an awareness; a widespread desire to gain from significant impacts provided by indigenous faith based religions. Increasing demand sprouts forth in favor of reliable and accessible knowledge wherein we may find solutions to the challenges time & consequence deliver. Where indigenous religions have historically laid the cornerstones for civilizations throughout history, the subsequent evolution of various forms of religious thought directly influence significant world events, as well as international relations and circumstance. These implications reach past assigning attributes. In the end, watering down the process mankind is collectively experiencing to a measly attempt at classifying externals may appear to be short in coming.
We all worship the same God whether we know it or not! Perhaps you are correct ... Yet, some contend to know that God desires sacrafice, while others hope the Father desires mercy. Some will go to war to protect their investment. Others will be ridiculed and murdered to live theirs. The two are mutually exclusive.
What I mean by that kind of blasphemous statement is best understood by a metaphor. Imagine a model (God) is being fitted for a suit of clothes (the religions) by freshmen student tailors at the local university. That doesn't seem so blasphemous imho, but rather interesting. Imagine that everytime the poignant, and oh, so adorable, model is fit by the most proficient tailors of the semester that, without wasting a nary o' time, the perfected suit is cleverly intercepted, and - as cleverly - later returned, by the resident pranksters of the university who seem to desire nothing more or nothing less than to add insult to injury by implementing less than desirable alterations which cause the, once fine, suit to bunch up in all of the wrong places, and so, unawares of the mischievous youths supposedly innocent antics, the suit is donned - most disastrously - in preparation of picture day. Real funny ...
Well after a few days all the students have their suites (religions) ready of the model (God) to try on. None fit perfectly, but some are nearly perfect. And the worst ones are like a potato sack! Well of course being a Christian I feel that my students suit fit’s the very best! I enjoyed the potato sack bit! Although, it may be unfortunate that so many right wing fundamentalists have missed the spirit of the potato sack, instead embracing, what often seems to appear as, the spirit of the emperor's 'new clothes'. As a self prolaimed 'christian', do you ever wonder why your various suit manufacturering plants are unable to employ the same template within their assembly lines? Please don't suggest it is because variety is the spice of Life ... That is obvious.
The cut and style is nearly perfect. I just laughed so hard a cheerio flew out my nose! lol - no more cereal @ the laptop during rev's posts!! Anyway, considering how often one can find two self proclaimed 'christians' sportin' new suits designed by separate manufacturers and all, it may come as lil' surprise for the audience to learn that your perception of the cut and style of your suit seems to be a one of a kind fit to you. Yet, is that important? Can our variant perceptions of cut and style consistently align with an established standard preference? If so, why so much disunity among the variant traditions associated to christian dogmas & doctrines, rather than a disciplined, uniform standard? Lemme take a gander here ... Designing suits is more proftable than wearing them?
So you see even though the other religions do not describe God more closely they are not as right as my religion is. What is this - a comedy act!? Thank you ladies and gentlemen. The names RevCrossHugger and we'll be here all week
[badoomp - tis] On a more serious note, thankfully many traditions are not right at all, but rather left, as the radical prophetic traditions carried on by the Prophets of the Original Testaments, of which Yeshua HaMashiach obediently culminated. If being left is wrong, I don't wanna be right. Had they not been canonized into the final Roman scripture text collection, we may have no words of wisdom to quench the thirst of the lost tribes of christianity, much less anyone else.
I choose the Hebrew God (rather God chose me). The Hebrew God? So, you're actually a kosher, ToRaH abiding jew? I thought you were a self proclaimed christian. Either way, more power to you and glory to the Father, friend. However, I'd caution you of the distractions interweaved throughout the superstitions of 2nd Temple Judaism and it's lover, Imperial Christianity, most of which you're likely aware of, nonetheless. btw - exactly who has been chosen will be revealed on the last day. Until then, if you cannot refrain, your former statement should pleasantly suffice.
I hope this makes some sense, although it won’t solve many problems perhaps it will shed some light on my beliefs. I hope it makes sense to you, as you are ultimately the one who must live with the consequences of the beliefs you choose to validate. I'd also say you are probably spot on as far as your final assessment regarding the abilities of this topic to promote unity. However, if placing yourself in the spotlight is indeed your humble desire, it seems as you have taken center stage. Welcome to EvC RevCrossHugger. Hope you enjoy your stay. One Love
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the brief exchange granny ...
Hope things are well with you and yours. You have reduced all religious differences to a matter of trivial personal whim. Now that sounds like a pretty good thing to me, but I am puzzled as to why you would go so far toward deism or even agnosticism and yet keep the trappings of a Christian religion that is no more than a fashion statement or accident of birth. Any thoughts? This appears suggestive towards a not-so subtle display of death anxiety, perhaps instilled by rev's initial exposure to Imperial Roman[ticized] Christianity and combined with his underlying conviction that Yeshua is indeed HaMashiach. Often, christians realize, upon concluding that Yeshua is HaMashiach, that murdering Yeshua was not the only option humanity had at its disposal to accomplish the establishment of undefiled traditions and continuous living. Yet, they are taught to think that suggesting otherwise is a display of blasphemy and weak faith that may most certainly cost them their salvation.
quote: This is where reasoning wrestles with romance; unless one fertilizes their seed of faith firmly in the hocus pocus magic blood rituals derived from the blood libel assigned to Yeshua's innocence by some poli-religious pranksters who were constantly on the prowl to indulge their insatiable lusts for the Fat o' the Land™ and continual Shedding of Innocent Blood™; both trademarks of the corrupted Levitical priesthood, upon whose shoulders, according to the Law and the Prophets, the entire hocus pocus blood magic rituals lay, Yeshua did not have to be murdered. Depending on the distinct concentration of indocrination that one has experienced, it may take a lotta courage for some to speak against that murder. Yet, there seems to be an abundance of inspiration; where many are coming out of Babylon, Yeshua set the stage for Martin Luther and the rest. If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ...
'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice' They surely would not have condemned the innocent. Perhaps rev is coming of age. One Love
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3712 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Actually, I would say that religions are an attempt to assign attributes to the universe. quote:Religions developed locally, so really people aren't all worshiping the same god. They are worshiping the god to which they have assigned the attributes of their area. quote:Actually, the model is different for each student. The model was limited to their respective areas and civilization. So each suit fits the area for which it was designed perfectly. Christianity is actually displaced, IMO.
quote:I don't think you've actually chosen the Hebrew God. Sounds more like you've chosen the God of the NT or the God designed by the Greeks after the destruction of the Temple. Different time, different needs, different suit. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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RevCrossHugger Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
quote: Well my beliefs are somewhat similar, but not the same by a long shot! God is simply God, my beliefs are personal but I do have some mild evangelizing to do, however I whisper my faith not shout it, as Paul tells us ; ” Defend our faith at every turn but do it with reverence and gentleness’. Of course being somewhat a redneck hillbilly I am working on the ego thing, it’s the last scourge of humanness that remains with a full on setting.
quote: Yes in its history that’s true, however I wasn’t around thousands of years ago the ”slaughter’ was more like justifiable homicide or self defense if you ask me, additionally after Jesus arrived even that changed.
quote: I could say I am going to go on a killing spree ordered by Granny. Would that make granny a murderer? In the modern era killing for the lord such as aborting slayings are simply murder by a nutcase. How could he be a Christian at the moment of the killing when that goes directly against the teachings of Jesus. There is even scripture that tells us at least one sin is death. No repentance possible.
quote: Thank you I like strange, normal is boring and mundane. Kurt Godel was very strange but his genius was second only to Einstein.
quote: Yes there are demonstrable cases of that in history, very easy to prove. The Muslims are experiencing the very same thing today, however their religion may allow it, maybe they better call in their God for a second fitting?
quote: The authors got nothing wrong. The main message is that you must believe in God. Secondly the message is that you should accept Jesus Christ as a Christian and repent. Those two messages have made it, so the authors have done their job.
quote: I think you misunderstood at least part of my post. I believe the Hebrew/Christian religion. And I use many evidences to support my beliefs, I usually begin with a cosmological argument for the existence of God to get god into the universe and then work backwards from our era to describe why I think this God is personal. Although I do use the KCA* unlike Dr William Craig I use another method to describe how the cause (Read as God) that caused the universe to begin to exist is a personal sentient cause/God. ; {> The KCA is a first cause cosmological argument for the existence of God. If you are unfamiliar with the modern version of the KCA Google KCA William Craig. I like Craig but Robert Koon is bring even a better cosmological argument to the table. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
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RevCrossHugger Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
quote: What a wonderful bit of nothing. Afraid of real debate? Its best if you keep making your juvenile remarks and stay away from real debate like a good little boy. BTW, I usually use the iggy feature when someone has nothing to say but spew hate speech, the next time you feel the need to insult me with your inane gibberish you will be ignored. ; }> Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
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RevCrossHugger Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
quote: Likewise, but you haven't been in an exchange with me ...yet, and you will know it when it happens. (hee hee) BTW, Open theism is simply liberal theism. quote: Well I am hardly in control of what you think! I could write a novel about open theism and how it relates to traditional theology. The limitations of message boards demand brevity.
quote: A well written little writ of nonexistent wit (just kidding, it just sounded good you can use it if you want). I did intend to say that no religion was 100% correct. We are only right by degrees. Uncertainty makes sure of that.
quote: The leaders are evil by default. I can not speak for other religions but red letter Christianity is merciful and good. quote: Yes I have had fun thinking about the comparison myself. quote: Yes I rather detest the con men that claim to be Christians asking old women for their life savings etc. That is repulsive. Those false prophets are criminal in Gods eyes. However you may not be so liking me when I tell you the enemy of my enemy is my friend regardless. I do believe that there is a spiritual world and a spiritual war going on right now. So although I do not agree with the doctrine of the Pat Roberson’s of the world, they are more my ally than say Richard Dawkins.
quote: Jeans are Jeans God is God that is a given. I think you are taking the metaphor a bit too far. I see the rest of your post is a bit personal and has little to do with the subject etc. I don’t respond to personal remarks, especially if they are malicious. So ~
;{> Has anyone got a ball gag for Baily? I see he has even answered my post Ms Granny Granny Magda. Oh Dan please correct your spelling I highlighted the errors in red. You are welcome. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4971 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
If you look in the lower right hand corner of each post you will see a little "reply" button. By clicking on that instead of the "Gen Reply" button at the top or bottom of each page you'll make a direct link to the person to whom you are replying, and, as an added benefit, you'll get a copy of the post you are replying to right below your white response space.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them. Thomas Jefferson
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RevCrossHugger Member (Idle past 5606 days) Posts: 108 From: Eliz. TN USA Joined: |
quote: Well say what you will, I am sure you know I do not agree that Jesus was not the Hebrew God in the flesh, however I respect your views, I simply disagree. All evidence for the Christian God or Hebrew God is created by man, the only question is what is divinely inspired and what is not. I will respond to the rest of your post shortly, at least you seen fit to leave the personal remarks where they belong. ;{>
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