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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 300 (274427)
12-31-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
12-31-2005 11:42 AM


Re: Health
There's another place Jesus said that:

Jhn 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up your bed, and walk? Jhn 5:13 And he that was healed knew not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in [that] place. Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.

Also, the Book of Proverbs is full of admonitions of sickness as a result of sin, and improved health is promised for obedience.

This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 03:18 PM

This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 03:19 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 12-31-2005 11:42 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Trixie, posted 12-31-2005 6:05 PM Faith has responded

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1877 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 77 of 300 (274480)
12-31-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
12-31-2005 3:08 PM


Re: Health
That reasoning would suggest that newborn babies are up shit creak without a paddle. I have trouble reconciling that view with the God of Love.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 3:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 7:09 PM Trixie has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 300 (274489)
12-31-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Trixie
12-31-2005 6:05 PM


Re: Health
You have trouble reconciling what the Bible says with the God of Love, about whom we would know zip except for the Bible, which is the only source of the idea that God is Love. Interesting.

This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 07:11 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Trixie, posted 12-31-2005 6:05 PM Trixie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Trixie, posted 12-31-2005 7:48 PM Faith has responded
 Message 152 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 12:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1877 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 79 of 300 (274497)
12-31-2005 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
12-31-2005 7:09 PM


Re: Health
No, I said I had trouble with the reasoning you put forward and the view you expressed.

The message of Jesus was that of a loving Father, that doesn't gel with what you're saying. I thought the whole point of the life and teachings and sacrifice of Jesus was that there was a new covenant with God. How loving is a Father who holds his children responsible for the sins of others a long time ago? How loving is a Father who makes these children pay for the sins of others by illness and suffering and death?

This paints a very different picture of God to the one that Jesus painted. So, who should I, as a Christian, believe? Shall I believe Jesus who I believe IS the Son of God and Saviour, or should I believe Faith on the internet?

My task is made easier for me in that I don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. I believe that certain writers may have been inspired by God, but I don't believe that every word is God-inspired. To believe that every word is God-inspired leads only to the conclusion that God knew very little about how His people interacted with the planet around them. We have to believe that He knew nothing about bacteria and viruses that cause disease. We have to ascribe to Him the same primitive level of knowledge that the people had at that time. If God's knowledge only increases as man finds things out, does that mean that God only learns things from our endeavours?

Or we can consider that the messages in the Bible were put in such a way as to explain things to His people in ways that they could cope with, in ways that were relevant to their way of life.

Another question that this raises for me is, if disease is the payment for sin, are Christians then going against God's will in praying for healing? Surely if God has decided that the punishment is appropriate, who are we to question this? And wouldn't we be committing terrible sins by treating these sin-induced infections with antibiotics etc? If these diseases are the punishment of a righteous God on sinners, surely we are no better than helpers of Satan when we treat and care for these sinners and mitigate or ven cure the punishment that God has sent?

Obviously I can't agree with any of that. Compassion, sympathy, empathy, charity are at the core of the Christian message, the message of Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus advocate this if it nullifies God's punishments?

As Jar is so fond of saying, the Bible is the map, not the territory. I don't have faith in the Bible because it is not God, I don't worship the Bible because it is not God, I have no other God but the God that I know through Jesus and through my relationship with him. I can't have a spiritual relationship with ink on paper.

As an aside, what if a new edition of the Bible appears with a typo? Is the typo God-inspired and if not, why not?

Happy New Year to you and yours, keep safe!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 7:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 8:12 PM Trixie has responded
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:57 AM Trixie has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 300 (274500)
12-31-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Trixie
12-31-2005 7:48 PM


Re: Health
No, I said I had trouble with the reasoning you put forward and the view you expressed.

You were responding to a post in which I did nothing but quote the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Trixie, posted 12-31-2005 7:48 PM Trixie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Trixie, posted 12-31-2005 8:26 PM Faith has responded

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1877 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 81 of 300 (274507)
12-31-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
12-31-2005 8:12 PM


Re: Health
Your post says the following

There's another place Jesus said that:
Jhn 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up your bed, and walk? Jhn 5:13 And he that was healed knew not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in [that] place. Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.

Also, the Book of Proverbs is full of admonitions of sickness as a result of sin, and improved health is promised for obedience.

Can you point me to the Chapter nad verso of the Bible that you were quoting here

Also, the Book of Proverbs is full of admonitions of sickness as a result of sin, and improved health is promised for obedience.

If this is not your view of what the Bible says, then why did you write it? Of course I am making the wild assumption that the quotes you provided were in some way made to support your viewpoint. If they are diametrically opposed to your viewpoint, maybe you should put a disclaimer on them.

Your post raised a number of questions for me and I tried to explain my position to you so that you could understand where I was coming from. I thought this might make it easier for you to reply to the specific points I made.

I would appreciate an answer to post 79


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 8:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 9:33 PM Trixie has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 300 (274515)
12-31-2005 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Trixie
12-31-2005 8:26 PM


Re: Health
Proverbs 3:8, 7:23.

If I'm up to it I may answer further later.

This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 09:34 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Trixie, posted 12-31-2005 8:26 PM Trixie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-01-2006 1:07 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2006 2:29 AM Faith has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2099 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 83 of 300 (274539)
01-01-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
12-31-2005 9:33 PM


Re: Health
tell me. if i spend a year eating vegetable shortening and only vegetable shortening but i go to church and i profess the bible and jesus and i do mission work and i abstain and i have amazing faith and i pray without ceasing in my heart and i never cuss and i dress modestly and i'm honest and kind and yell at the evos...

do you think i won't have a massive coronary and die?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 9:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 84 of 300 (274563)
01-01-2006 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
12-31-2005 9:33 PM


Re: Health
metaphors?

quote:
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.



אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 9:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 2:39 AM arachnophilia has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 300 (274564)
01-01-2006 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by arachnophilia
01-01-2006 2:29 AM


Re: Health
Of course not metaphors. In that case the suffering was a test. Job was certainly a righteous man, but like everyone else he'd inherited the sin nature -- or no suffering could have touched him (the only perfectly righteous man was Jesus, who had to choose to suffer and die bearing the sins of others, because in Himself he couldn't die).

Happy New Year Arach.

I disagree with just about everything you write, but I hope it doesn't get personal.

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 02:40 AM

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 09:59 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2006 2:29 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 1:37 PM Faith has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 341 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 300 (274599)
01-01-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by crashfrog
12-30-2005 2:00 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
Hard to fake? Why would it be hard to fake? All you would have to do is just make up a story about it and type it into a text box.

You just know that the guys that told randman about their "miraculous" dental work experiences are just pulling his leg.

They're probably placing bets with each other on how far-fetched a story they can make up that randman will swallow and are having a great laugh at his expense.

Poor randman.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2005 2:00 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Brian, posted 01-01-2006 7:43 AM nator has not yet responded
 Message 90 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 1:12 PM nator has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3131 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 87 of 300 (274601)
01-01-2006 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
01-01-2006 7:34 AM


Re: prove it
We once got a guy 'drunk' by giving him lemonade and telling him it was vodka and lemonade. The bar owner just dabbed a little vodka along the edge of the glass now and then, the guy left the bar drunk! :laugh:

It is amazing what the human brain can do.

The miracles of God are only real in the minds of the gullible. They thank God for the miracle that 3 people out of 50 survived a plane crash, they never question why God allowed the plane to crash in the first instance.

Miracles, just like prayer, are only products of over active imaginations.

Brian.

PS, I did chuckle at your earlier post, millions dying every day but Rand's mate now has shiny gold teeth :laugh:

I wonder if his mate had prayed for gold teeth!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 01-01-2006 7:34 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 1:13 PM Brian has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 300 (274625)
01-01-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Trixie
12-31-2005 7:48 PM


Re: Health
The message of Jesus was that of a loving Father, that doesn't gel with what you're saying.

Again, I wasn't "saying" anything. I quoted the Bible. Referred to the Bible in the case of Proverbs. Didn't give my own view of anything. In fact I have to guess what you are talking about. You are imputing all kinds of ideas to me without quoting me, and most of them I don't recognize as my own.

However, assuming this is what you are talking about: The view of Jesus as a loving Father comes from the Bible. So does the view of God as a righteous judge.

I thought the whole point of the life and teachings and sacrifice of Jesus was that there was a new covenant with God.

Yes, there is, for those who believe in Him. But the same writings that announce the New Covenant also explain that the need for the New Covenat is that all human beings are by nature under God's wrath.

How loving is a Father who holds his children responsible for the sins of others a long time ago? How loving is a Father who makes these children pay for the sins of others by illness and suffering and death?

I don't impose my opinions on God as you are doing. I don't question His lovingness based on my own feelings. I try to understand how it all works together as the Bible presents it, not as it appeals or doesn't appeal to me. This is of course because I am certain that it is the Word of God. If I didn't have this conviction, then I might feel free to judge it. And I've done my best to explain what I understand of it at times here at EvC too. I'm doing my best to stick to what I understand to be traditional theology and not indulge in my own private interpretation.

This paints a very different picture of God to the one that Jesus painted.

Only according to your own personal way of reading it, not according to, say, the Westminster Catechism which I've posted, or most evangelical believers.

So, who should I, as a Christian, believe? Shall I believe Jesus who I believe IS the Son of God and Saviour, or should I believe Faith on the internet?

Do you still beat your dog? Sorry, that's the way your either/or hits me.

My task is made easier for me in that I don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

Yes, much easier. Leaves it open for picking and choosing whatever one pleases.

I believe that certain writers may have been inspired by God, but I don't believe that every word is God-inspired. To believe that every word is God-inspired leads only to the conclusion that God knew very little about how His people interacted with the planet around them. We have to believe that He knew nothing about bacteria and viruses that cause disease. We have to ascribe to Him the same primitive level of knowledge that the people had at that time. If God's knowledge only increases as man finds things out, does that mean that God only learns things from our endeavours?

Funny, I don't have any of those problems.

Or we can consider that the messages in the Bible were put in such a way as to explain things to His people in ways that they could cope with, in ways that were relevant to their way of life.

Sounds reasonable to me. But not if you think that means they aren't relevant to us too.

Another question that this raises for me is, if disease is the payment for sin, are Christians then going against God's will in praying for healing? Surely if God has decided that the punishment is appropriate, who are we to question this?

It is not exactly a punishment. It is the natural consequence of sin. And certainly who ARE we to question this? If, that is, you accept that the Bible is God's word. If you don't, all kinds of questions come up.

And wouldn't we be committing terrible sins by treating these sin-induced infections with antibiotics etc?

You can't have read much of what I have written here to be saying such things. Are you sure you meant to address this post to me?

If these diseases are the punishment of a righteous God on sinners, surely we are no better than helpers of Satan when we treat and care for these sinners and mitigate or ven cure the punishment that God has sent?

Oh nonsense.

Obviously I can't agree with any of that. Compassion, sympathy, empathy, charity are at the core of the Christian message, the message of Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus advocate this if it nullifies God's punishments? As Jar is so fond of saying, the Bible is the map, not the territory. I don't have faith in the Bible because it is not God, I don't worship the Bible because it is not God, I have no other God but the God that I know through Jesus and through my relationship with him. I can't have a spiritual relationship with ink on paper.

Straw man. I've never said anything to justify such a notion. The problem is that there is no other source of information about the nature of God. If you don't rely on the Bible's information you are subject to making up your own God and worshiping an idol of your own invention.

As an aside, what if a new edition of the Bible appears with a typo? Is the typo God-inspired and if not, why not?

I don't subscribe to that view of inerrancy.

Happy New Year to you as well.

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 11:27 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Trixie, posted 12-31-2005 7:48 PM Trixie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Admin, posted 01-01-2006 12:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 92 by Trixie, posted 01-01-2006 3:31 PM Faith has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12602
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 89 of 300 (274658)
01-01-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
01-01-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Health
Faith writes:

Again, I wasn't "saying" anything. I quoted the Bible. Referred to the Bible in the case of Proverbs. Didn't give my own view of anything.

Faith, I have to confess as much confusion as Trixie. Any reasonable person would assume you provided the Bible quotes because they were congruent or supportive of your arguments. If they were for some other purpose, perhaps providing relevant background, then you need to make that clear.

Hypothetical conversation:

Person 1: Well, I think Max was being stupid.

Person 2: "Judge not that ye be not judged."

Person 1: Don't you think I should have an opinion about his behavior?

Person 2: I never said you shouldn't.

Person 1: Yes you did. You said I shouldn't judge him unless I wanted to risk judgment myself.

Person 2: No I didn't. I just quoted the Bible.

Person 1: Okay, fine, whatever. See ya.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 10:11 PM Admin has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 90 of 300 (274667)
01-01-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
01-01-2006 7:34 AM


Re: prove it
Shraf, the simple fact is I saw the before and after, and have witnessed so many miracles in different meetings, and received some myself, that from my perspective, debating it with you is like a man trying to tell someone in a primitive state that an airplane is not a big bird or some such.

I suppose you haven't been there, haven't seen, and so you ridicule what you do not understand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 01-01-2006 7:34 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 01-01-2006 9:35 PM randman has responded

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